TRANSCRIPTION

Sophie Trudeau:

The more we deal with our emotions and our traumas, whether big or small, the better chances we’ll give ourselves of having this relationship with life and with others, and that’s liberation.

Jay Ruderman:

Interacting with the natural world is foundational to Sophie Trudeau’s mental health and sense of self.

Sophie Trudeau:

I kind of had this intimate relationship with nature. I felt safe with her. I felt listened to. I felt at ease in silence, which today is almost impossible with the chaotic lifestyles and very noisy lives that we lead when we pay attention to the noise more than the music.

Jay Ruderman:

Today, a childhood and a life free of technological distractions is simply not possible, and Sophie sees these distractions greatly impact our relationships to others and ourselves.

Sophie Trudeau:

We’re taught that slowing down is a sort of failure. We are impairing our brains, the development of our brains. We are impairing our relationships. And therefore, we are impairing our own capacity to understand ourselves better.

Jay Ruderman:

This is something that she addresses in her new book, Closer Together, which aims to inspire us to see that there are more things that bring us together than separate us.

Sophie Trudeau:

We need good people with a good heart, good values, and who believe in human goodness and who want the best for others without dividing or polarizing or hating. I think that is the core and the essential qualities of evolution and of peace.

Jay Ruderman:

Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, thank you so much for being my guest on All About Change. I’m really excited about this conversation.

Sophie Trudeau:

So am I. And change is everything. A fixed mindset is a dangerous one, so I just love that title. It’s a good way to start.

Jay Ruderman:

Oh, thank you. Thank you. So, Sophie, you’ve talked about our brain is a 200,000-year-old brain, but it’s impacted by our earliest childhood experiences. Can you talk a little bit about that? Talk about maybe growing up in a small town in Quebec and how your childhood, you think, affected your mental health.

Sophie Trudeau:

Mm-hmm. This is such a fascinating topic, because now I think we’re understanding more and more how, because our brains, from a structure perspective, are like a big, hard disk, like a computer hard disk. And the structure hasn’t changed in 200,000 years, but the programming has. And that programming on the hard drive is really how we were taken care of, how your parent or your caregiver, whether it was a mom or a dad, an uncle or a grandmother, held you, looked at you, the amount of time they looked at you, for example, when they fed you, when they played with you, the way they validated your reality and your sense of self.

That’s something called epistemic trust. It simply means that the person who took care of you from zero to three years old, did that person give you constant care, support, validation? And did they, for example, when you were sad or when you were angry, did they soothe your nervous system by holding you, by touching you, by reassuring you until your whole nervous system calmed down, or were there six siblings in the background, grabbing their attention, and then they had to turn their head away, and they had to go onto something else and say, “Okay. You’ll be fine, my love”?

The one thing we have to understand here, Jay, is that trauma is not just something really bad that happened to you. And unfortunately, this is true for a lot of people. But it’s also something that did not take place from an emotional perspective that should have taken place. So we all have, in some way or another, trauma in our brains, and therefore in how we carry the zero-to-three childhood bond of attachment that we call into all of our adult relationships, because if you think that your four-year-old is still not active, the way you react to conflict or criticism or in your own relationships, read Closer Together, because you’ll be able to learn more in a very accessible way about science and how we’re wired from early childhood, and that that wiring is carried throughout our whole lifetime.

Jay Ruderman:

So most of us don’t remember our early childhood. And I get what you’re saying. It’s vitally important. And you talk about that you were able to get in touch with little Sophie and love her. How did that happen? How were you able to connect with yourself as a very young girl?

Sophie Trudeau:

So I think I did part of that work naturally, because I grew up in a small town called Sainte-Adèle in Quebec. I’m an only child, and my parents really let me play out in nature, and they would spend time with me in nature as well. But I guess I developed the kind of trust in something greater than what my eye could see as a child. But because I was allowed to play outside by myself and to really form a sense of independence, I kind of had this intimate relationship with nature.

I felt safe with her. I felt listened to. I felt at ease in silence, which today is almost impossible with the chaotic lifestyles and very noisy lives that we lead when we pay attention to the noise more than the music. Right? So yeah, I think early, I caught on to a spiritual… It’s not religious, to a spiritual component of life, to something that is greater than what the human eye can see that I trusted. And I think that helped me on my path later when I had my own path of suffering like every other human being does.

Jay Ruderman:

You talk about the way that you grew up and being in nature, and without the distractions that we have today. And now you have your own children, and I have my own children, and I’ve heard you talk about cell phones and electronics and the impact it has on our kids and us. You also quote Esther Perel, and she said, “The quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives.” And what are relationships like these days, and what is our mental health like these days when our interface and our children’s interface is mainly through the telephone?

Sophie Trudeau:

This gives me chills because, well, you must have heard of all the work that’s been coming out now and the research on the impact of social media and screens, and not a lot of time in nature and less human connection on the development of our brains, but also on the quality of our relationships. So I guess the biggest drug, the numbing drug that is free-flowing these days is lust, distraction, and rage.

And when you look at movements of populations or groups that ignite that fear, ignite those places where we are threatened by the difference of others, I think if we add to that or maybe include that and better understand it, it really stems from hate, for example, and I talk about this in Closer Together. Hate stems from a deep need for human connection that never took place. This does not excuse abusive behavior or condemnable behavior, or atrocities being committed throughout the planet, not at all.

But it does better explain how the human brain is aware of its own conscious and unconscious patterns or not. But when we live in a society where, yes, lust, rage, and distraction are the drugs of choice, and where we are not taught to reset, we are not taught that we are worthy of rest. We’re taught that slowing down is a sort of failure. You’re not the ultra-performer. You’re not the ultra-competitor. We are impairing our brains, the development of our brains. We are impairing our relationships. And therefore, we are impairing our own capacity to understand ourselves better.

So what’s happening right now in the child’s developmental brain is that when they’re always on screens and there’s less human connection and less time spent in nature, when they take low risk, low costs, risks, let’s say, and experiences in childhood, like fall off your bike, get back on, fall off the branch of the tree, get back, and you’ll know you’ll be fine, right? You’re taking those low risks, low costs, that tell you that you’re resilient. You can go through anything.

So when that is being impaired and that’s not being pushed in our own children, what happens when they get to the teenage years and the adult years when it’s high-risk, high-cost life? Because it’s real life. It’s not childhood anymore. And then criticism and big emotion and failure is felt like these waves that we can’t control, when, in fact, human emotions are not dangerous. Fear is not dangerous. Panic and lack of awareness, that can be dangerous, and suffering in silence, obviously.

Jay Ruderman:

So what about what our kids and what we are getting bombarded with all the time, which is… And you, more than most people in the world, and your family have been bombarded with hate. There’s so much hate out there, so much divisiveness. How do you deal with that? For your own mental health, for your family’s mental health. I mean, they’ve been subjected to some really terrible attacks, and how do you deal with that?

Sophie Trudeau:

So there’s a couple of things here. First of all, I’m very aware that politics is not being played the same way than it was five, 10, 15, 20 years ago, or more for that matter. But still, it changed a lot in the past, I would say, six, seven, eight years. And yes, there’s a lot of bullying online, intimidation. A lot of female MPs are being threatened. It’s a very toxic environment in which to grow daily. And this we have to discuss, because there is a mental health crisis in that industry as well.

And also, the other thing that, with time, I’ve studied as a mental health advocate, because I’m just a eternal student of life and I just want to deepen my knowledge of human behavior, what I’ve noticed are two things. First of all, and the experts are telling us this, and I really went deeper into it in Closer Together, in my book, is that hate stems from a deep need for human connection that didn’t happen.

It’s very often the same minority of people who are themselves in a very insecure mode, who feel threatened by the difference of others, and who need to blame or shame or bully in order to lift themselves. And that’s obviously not the right way to do it. But sometimes when people feel helpless and powerless, they will go there. And when they have very low self-awareness and capacity for self-regulation, fear can take over, and then panic can take over, and then you have to survive.

So you have to blame, because it’s almost impossible for you to continue on with your day, because you’re constantly in your alert mode, in your sympathetic nervous system, like bells are ringing, like there’s a saber-toothed tiger that’s going to attack you every minute of the day. So it’s understandable from a psychological, neurobiological point of view.

Is it acceptable? No. Is it real? It’s not that personal. It’s very sad. It breaks my heart, because it shows a very low level of emotional awareness and emotional leadership. And I think that our society, our peace, and our democracies, our institutions, our communities, and our schools depends on our capacity for self-awareness, self-regulation, and emotional leadership.

Jay Ruderman:

As a woman who’s a leader, and you mentioned other ministers, women in positions of power who are attacked on very personal ways, on their appearance, are you able to say, “This isn’t about me. This is hurtful, but this isn’t about me”?

Sophie Trudeau:

Absolutely. We can all take criticism to become better at our work, become better at our relationships, become better with our friends and at life in general. But the level of accusations of hatred and of blame lacks serious common sense, and it lacks serious self-awareness. So I think we have to look at the root causes of that, and that’s a mental health crisis.

We pathologize a lot of mental health things. Mental health is not just the absence of mental illness. And by the way, I think that the people who are insecure and threatened and bullying and intimidating, they’re not in a secure place. And therefore, they are threatened by the difference of others, because… I’ll always remember a great psychologist, 40 years of experience or so, telling me in the book, her name is Rose-Marie Charest, saying, “Sophie, the most unhappy human beings I’ve ever met in my life are the ones who cannot trust in others.” So think about the movements right now that are happening on planet Earth.

Jay Ruderman:

Yeah.

Sophie Trudeau:

A lot of people have become distrustful of institutions, of people, of governments, and this is dangerous. Not to say that there’s not bad people everywhere. There are bad people, like the bad apple that makes the whole group of apples look really bad, and that’s really unfortunate because it’s not the case. And Jay, what I can tell you is that 10 years on the whole political path, what I’ve noticed is that most humans and most people who are public servants are amazing human beings, who sacrifices their family life daily, yearly, for years in front of them in order to serve their citizens. So the fact that we are kind of painting a picture that is not the actual picture of what real service is about, I think that’s dangerous, because who’s going to want to do it in this toxic environment?

Jay Ruderman:

Right.

Sophie Trudeau:

We need good people with a good heart, good values, and who believe in human goodness and who want the best for others without dividing or polarizing or hating. I think that is the core and the essential qualities of evolution and of peace. We’re talking about the state of the world when we talk about mental health. It’s not just to call us here.

Jay Ruderman:

Sophie, you’ve been very transparent about your own mental health, and you’ve talked publicly years ago about struggling with bulimia as a teen and into your 20s. Can you talk about that, realizing when that was an issue, and how did you take the steps to get the help that you needed?

Sophie Trudeau:

When you ask me that, I still feel the sadness of what it means to be lonely, of what it means to suffer in silence, and to be ashamed or feel guilty, feeling never good enough, feeling, “Why am I suffering from this? I’m such a loser. Why can’t I stop this now?” Well, one, because it’s probably because you haven’t examined your trauma completely. Two, because an addiction always stems from a lack of connection that you needed and that you didn’t get. Three, we’re all one trauma away from each other.

It takes one traumatic life event to change your brain, to change your mind, to change the way you interact with yourself and with other people, or a series of traumas that are just there chronically that you don’t really notice, and that at some point, your body is like, “I can’t do this anymore.” And by the way, when your body is in your sympathetic mode, your fight, flight, freeze, for too long, what it does is that you can become chronically sick, physically or mentally.

But also, it can go into what we call vagal dorsal mode, which means it’s kind of like the fawn. Everything shuts down, which is depression, low energy, darkness, slow, feeling you can’t cope with anything. No way you can get out of bed. That’s when all other systems in your brain have been tried, and in your nervous system, and they didn’t feel safe enough, and you fall there.

So when we understand this, we understand better that in a fast-paced, stressful, competitive, success about recognition instead of contribution, not sleeping well enough, and that whole wheel of elements affecting our sleep, because insomnia and sleep disturbances are an epidemic in themselves, we understand how our stress mode, who’s actually there to protect us, because positive stress is important. It leads us to action. Stress can tell us that there’s a danger passing in front of you on the street, and you stop to protect yourself, and stress can be good. But when we overuse that system chronically, then we can really fall, and that’s when the system shuts down.

Jay Ruderman:

But you were able to reach out. You were able to ask for help. Before you go, I just want to say it’s very personal to me. I mean, I have a son who has ADHD. He needs help. We’re trying to get him the help that he needs, but he’s very resistant to getting help. So on a personal level, I’m very curious, how do you make that first step happen with someone that you love or for yourself?

Sophie Trudeau:

So first of all, thank you for your vulnerability. I think this is very useful. I think we need to talk more about our own vulnerabilities, because people are probably going, “Yes, me too. Yeah, my son. Oh, yes, my cousin,” or whatever. Right? It’s a universal story that we’re sharing here, and it’s hard. It’s hard as parents to be able to go towards our child and discuss this.

But a couple of things. First of all is, after having suffered for so many years from bulimia myself, and having suffered in silence, the moment I asked for help, now that I look back, it was a tiny leap that looked enormous, monstrous to me, to be able to say, “I’m hurting. I need help.” And the moment I did that, my whole life changed. It didn’t change in the moment, but it gave a new direction to my inner life and to my life out in the world.

So I would say that don’t be afraid of the awkward conversation. Don’t be afraid if sometimes it’s upsetting. It’s okay. It’s okay. Let’s not hold back because we are afraid to upset each other. Being upset is part of life. So I would say that. I would say as well, if, as a parent, you need support from a friend of the family or somebody that you know your child trusts, that you could bring in that voice as well.

So first of all, let’s not be ashamed of it. Second of all, let’s understand that it’s a reaction to the way we live, and it’s not just, “Oh, you inherited this, and this is how it’s going to be.” Okay? And I think that it is not as difficult to adapt with that to life with more awareness and more calm. Schools and communities are more and more inclined and open to giving support to teens and to children who are struggling.

And finally, I think that it can be a gift. It can be a gift. So I think that the more we read on these conditions and the more we actually know more about the source, root causes of these different learning differences, and neurodiversity, we understand that in there, there is a way of perceiving the world, a way of thinking that can actually be quite useful to solve problems, to think outside the box, and to actually have more discernment and realization of the actual society that we live in, and the culture and the values that are being shared that can be quite unhealthy.

I think it’s important for a child to realize that as well, that, “You are reacting, my love, to something that is not healthy for you.” And what we bring our attention to, we become. We become that. So no surprise. Look at how we live. It can be explained, but now we have to take it seriously and to think of new ways to adapt to knowledge and learning, because, as you know, I’m sure that maybe some of your kids are already doing their homework with ChatGPT.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. Right. It’s a different world.

Sophie Trudeau:

It is.

Jay Ruderman:

I want to ask you, in 2006, you came out publicly and talked about your struggles with bulimia. And I know that you’ve also talked about, “Well, is this going to affect my career, and people going to offer me contracts?” What made you come out at that time and talk about it?

Sophie Trudeau:

So a friend of mine who I studied with at college when I was about, I don’t know, 16, for some reason, I didn’t talk a lot about my eating disorder to other people, but she knew. And she came to me years later when we were at CEGEP, which is kind of like a pre-university, for Americans, and she said, “Listen, Soph, I’m starting a foundation.”

She had issues as well. She said, “I want to help people. There are too many people suffering from eating disorders. Nobody talks about this. We have to do something. I’m starting this foundation. Do you want to get involved?” I’m like, “Absolutely.” And then she said, “But you understand that if we do a press conference and you get involved…” I was a newcomer in the TV and radio industry, so it could have been disastrous. People could have gone just, “Oh my God, that’s the girl who vomits.” And boom, stigma, taboo. Absolutely no education or comprehension of what it is.

So I said yes, and I said, “Okay.” And then I had to think about, “How am I going to share this? This is insane. How are people going to react?” And I think that the sane voice that I had access to when I was a little girl surrounded by adults, who internalized all of her parents’ tensions, and who was in nature a lot, and who could go in to listen a little bit deeper, at some point, I felt, “Soph, it’s the right thing to do.” I said, “Go for it. Do the right thing, and the rest will come into place.”

And I think that’s been my mantra for many, many years. Sometimes it’s clear to me. Sometimes it’s not at all, and I mess it up, and I don’t have it figured out. But the more I try it, the more I see that it comes from a place of integrity, of congruence, and of connection, and of honesty. And human beings, we’re only thirsty for that.

Jay Ruderman:

Your transparency is very apparent and it’s very refreshing, because what you’re talking about, everyone is dealing with, either themselves or in their family, or someone has a connection to mental health. So you wrote Closer Together: Knowing Ourselves, Loving Each Other. Why at this time? What prompted you to write it at this time?

Sophie Trudeau:

You’re going to laugh, but my answer lies in a quote that I have heard from Michael J. Fox. Are you ready?

Jay Ruderman:

Sure.

Sophie Trudeau:

Okay. We are only as sick as our secrets.

Jay Ruderman:

Powerful.

Sophie Trudeau:

Okay. So if you’re listening right now, just think about this in your own life. You might react not so well to it at first. It’s fine. I was also like, “What? What does he mean?” The secrets that we keep from ourselves, from our own traumatic experiences, our own lack of self-knowledge, the secrets that we keep from our friends, our lovers, our parents come from an incapacity to really express our true desires and emotional needs.

So if we work on our capacity to dig deeper to know what we truly need, and how to express it without attacking, without criticizing, or dramatizing, the maturity that stems from all of this could serve us to, I would say, not save relationships, because we have to be very careful, because we’ve been brought up in a system where success is marriage, divorce is failure. But really, life happens in between, and then we give all this drama to the kids, and the parents don’t get along, and that is heartbreaking.

And it’s not emotionally mature, and it’s not relationally mature, because it’s not the truth. Right? We need more models of relationships that evolves through life. And Esther Perel, again, can be quoted here, because she told me… Last time I saw her, she said, “Longevity is not the direct sign of a successful relationship.” But we’ve been taught that, and kids have been taught that. Therefore, when parents restructure a relationship or change a love, love changes through time. It doesn’t have to stay the same.

And our feeling and our fear of being rejected, of growing old alone, of being non-validated and being left by the tribe really triggers us in ways that is… Actually, it’s in our primitive brain. It’s normal. Okay? We don’t want to be left alone. We don’t want to be rejected by the tribe, because that means death. Right? So we’re competing with a primal nervous system and brain that tells us, “Be careful of the cues of danger out there and seek comfort.”

What does this remind you of? It’s kind of like an addiction process, right? Don’t let the negative come to you because it hurts too much, so numb it and seek comfort. Incentive/reward kind of thing. Okay? It’s a big generalization, but you’ll understand where I’m going with this, is that if we don’t learn to sit with the pain without feeling overwhelmed by it, we’re not training our brains, our bodies, our minds, and our whole system to face adversity and conflict in our everyday life with less drama.

So here’s the thing: Stress is a dysfunctional relationship with the present moment. Stress is a dysfunctional relationship with the present moment, because we’re constantly projecting, constantly planning, constantly taking ourselves out of the present moment. But love, what is love to you? You tell me, Jay. What is love to you?

Jay Ruderman:

Acceptance, comfort, belonging.

Sophie Trudeau:

Acceptance, comfort, belonging. Can that happen if presence is not there?

Jay Ruderman:

No.

Sophie Trudeau:

So, again, I have chills because I think that as we talk about this man to woman, we’ve never met. There’s a home between us right there. There’s a home. That home is in your heart and it’s in my heart. That’s where we meet, because that’s what we need, and it makes us non-strangers on the path. So in this world where we divide, where we want to conquer, to succeed, and to possess, whether it’s in love or in business, we are making ourselves sick, and we are dramatizing our human existence. That’s taking away our capacity to examine our brains, our minds, and our hearts.

Jay Ruderman:

Yeah. I’m fascinated by something that you’ve talked about, that there are generational cycles to emotional health. And why do you think it’s important for ourselves to try to break those cycles, and not only for ourselves, but for people that will come after us?

Sophie Trudeau:

Right. The people who came after us maybe in our own lifetime, and sometimes that’s apparent, and that leaves scars, deep scars. In my book, Closer Together, I talk with one great psychologist named Terry Real, who was abused as a child by a very tall father. And when he’s in conflict with his wife, she says, “Sometimes it’s that four-year-old child or seven-year-old child that’s triggered, feeling that there’s a six-foot tall man towering over me who’s going to hurt me. My wife doesn’t want to hurt me, but it triggers that alarm system in my nervous system, in my brain.”

And we all have this in some ways or another. It doesn’t have to do with family abuse, obviously, and I hope not. But it means that it takes one person from one generation to wake up. And I could have put in a little swear word in between, because sometimes it’s not as difficult as we think. It’s possible. We have the capacity to wake up and say, “Enough. Enough is enough of people suffering like this. We don’t have to continue on this path.”

But in order to do that, you have to accept what you went through, and you have to understand that hurt people hurt people, and that you have the power to be able to stop it. So I think the hopeful message here, the most positive message that we can share today is that in that home that separates you and I right now in this interview where we want to be validated, where we want to feel compassion from other people, and we want to be loved, and we want each other’s presence, it’s possible to offer this to yourself, and to offer it to every relationship that you’ll sustain in your lifetime.

And if you’re a leader somewhere, if you’re an influencer somewhere, whether it’s your own household, as a teacher, as a leader, or corporate leader, or whatever, wherever you are in your life, you have the capacity to change your own environment. That’s how it works.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. What I love about your book is that it’s so open, and there’s so much stigma surrounding the issue of mental health, and people are afraid to talk about it. What is your advice in terms of how we should talk about our experiences and traumas?

Sophie Trudeau:

Always remember that once you tell your story, you will hear someone along the path say, “Same. Similar. My mom, my dad, my family member, my friend, my friend’s cousin.” It’s everywhere. Our stories are universal. Our need for connection is universal, and our need to comprehend our own suffering is universal as well. And it brings us closer together, and that’s no pun intended, because that’s why I chose the title to this book, and that’s why I daydreamed the cover where we’re all holding each other around the book, because there’s no way that we can face the crises that are facing us as humanity, and whether it’s in our homes or in the streets, without having more awareness of how we work and how we react to life.

So the message is quite hopeful in a very chaotic world. Sometimes we can feel overwhelmed by, “Yeah. Okay, fine. All this is plausible.” But there’s a sense of urgency. There’s a mental health emergency on this planet. But if we stop, if we reset as much as we can, sometimes it’s five minutes between two meetings, instead of trying to resolve those 10 emails, slowing down in our nervous system, there is a way. There really is a way. And presence is the way. Love is the way. Compassion is the way. And it doesn’t come from being a monk, which is great, or from being the perfect human, and for figuring it all out. That’s not what we’re talking about here. But it’s the willingness to start and begin again and again and again.

Jay Ruderman:

Sophie, I wanted, first of all, to thank you for your time. I want to thank you for writing this book, Closer Together: Knowing Ourselves, Loving Each Other. I want everyone who’s listening here to go out and buy a copy, because it’s a phenomenal book. And not only do you talk about your own experiences, but you bring in the expertise that is needed to really understand mental health. It’s so needed in our society. I’m so happy that you wrote this book, and I’m proud that you were my guest in All About Change. So thank you so much for being here.

Sophie Trudeau:

Thank you. You’re bringing tears to my eyes, because if I can be honest, when I wrote it, I put my whole heart and soul into it, and I was thinking at some point, “Who’s going to read this? Are they even ready? Are they going to think I’m right?” And in doubt, I think we choose to trust, and that’s the big lesson here. So thank you for shining light on it, and thank you for having an open heart and an open mind to this and for receiving it this way. I really appreciate it, Jay.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you. It was a pleasure meeting you.

Sophie Trudeau:

Same here.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you. Choosing trust is a powerful message that I took from my conversation with Sophie. And to earn that trust, one shouldn’t be afraid of change. It’s never too late to change. That’s it for today’s episode. Join us two weeks from today for my talk with Academy Award-winning actress and education advocate Octavia Spencer.

Today’s episode was produced by Rebecca Chaisson, with story editing by Yochai Maital and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or to learn more about the show, you can visit our website, allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We’d really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation in partnership with Pod People. That’s all for now. I’m Jay Ruderman, and we’ll see you next time on All About Change.