TRANSCRIPTION

Jay Ruderman:

Welcome to All About Change.

Montana Tucker:

Once October 7th happened, this instinct in me and this feeling inside of me, it was instant that I knew that I had to do something. And this is my time to step up to combat anti-Semitism, to combat all forms of hate, and to share the truth of what’s going on and the reality, and really try to make a difference.

Jay Ruderman:

Today I’m thrilled to talk to Montana Tucker. She’s a talented musician, dancer, actor, and social media star. Montana is also a passionate advocate for Israel. She uses a platform to raise awareness about the situation there and to fight against anti-Semitism. Her grandparents survived the Holocaust, which deeply influences her views. Montana, welcome to All About Change.

Montana Tucker:

Thank you so much for having me.

Jay Ruderman:

So I want to start off with your family because I know you have a very close relationship with your mother.

Montana Tucker:

Yes.

Jay Ruderman:

And I saw a video series that you did on visiting Auschwitz and visiting Poland and the camps, and how impactful that is. Can you tell us the story of your personal connection to the Holocaust?

Montana Tucker:

Yes, absolutely. So growing up, I was extremely close to both my grandparents, but growing up I was obsessed with my grandparents, always heard their stories about the Holocaust. They would speak at… I’m from Boca Raton, Florida, and they would speak at all the schools around Florida. And my zadie specifically always wore pins that said, “I’m a survivor. Never forget, and never again.” And he would speak to anybody that would listen about his experience in the Holocaust to make sure truly that no one would ever forget, and that nothing like that would ever happen again. And when my zadie passed away, I was obviously so destroyed and devastated, and I rewatched his and my grandma’s testimonies from the Shoah Foundation. And even though I saw them as a kid, I rewatched them as an adult. And especially after him passing, I felt it on such a deep level, and I knew that I had to do something with their stories.

I wasn’t quite sure what, but I knew I had to do something. And my mom and I never went to Auschwitz and we’ve never visited the camps. And my grandma’s a survivor of Auschwitz and we decided, hey, let’s go to Poland and let’s do it. But then we also said, hey, I have the opportunity to impact millions of people, and my followers at the time were literally only Gen Z. And a lot of them aren’t being taught about the Holocaust in schools. Obviously we know about the Holocaust, but it’s crazy to me the amount of people around the world that really don’t know, and especially the younger generation, it’s getting less and less.

So I knew I had an opportunity to do something, so we decided to film it and make it a docu-series solely for social media. It was a 10 part series called How to Never Forget. You can watch it on my YouTube, but we made it solely for Instagram and TikTok at the time. And my followers at the time didn’t even know I was Jewish, really. Not on purpose, but because I grew my platforms from singing and dancing, and my goal was always to make people smile and happy with my videos. And so this was the first time that I was really going to introduce them to my family, my heritage, and make it very different than the content they’re used to.

And I was a little nervous about posting it because I wasn’t sure the reaction or how they were going to like it, but I said, you know what? If I had the opportunity to impact even one person from this series, I got to do it. Sorry that I’m crying right now. Usually you guys see me posting really fun dance videos where I’m always smiling and dancing, and today I am going to do something very, very, very different.

It took off in a way that I don’t think any of us would’ve ever expected, and I’m so grateful for it because it really did make an impact. And I started traveling around to different schools to talk about it. I got invited to the White House to have a sit-down conversation with Doug Emhoff about both of our experiences at Auschwitz, because he went right after me actually. And I hosted Israel’s 75th anniversary with Kamala Harris and Doug Emhoff and Michael Herzog. So this was all before October 7th, and it’s still very important to me to talk about the Holocaust for Holocaust education, and I think it’s more relevant than ever now.

Jay Ruderman:

So just an FYI for our listeners, the Shoah Foundation, what they have done is interview Holocaust survivors and to get their stories on tape and video to save them for perpetuity, to have personal stories about what people went through in the Holocaust. So I appreciate what your grandparents did to tell their stories. What do you know of their stories? What do you know of what they went through in the Holocaust?

Montana Tucker:

You can’t even imagine, even when I knew the stories and even when I actually went to the camps, you still can’t even really fully understand and imagine what they went through. And even after hearing their stories and the fact that they came to America with absolutely nothing, and they built such incredible lives for themselves, for my family, and also the fact that they had so much love inside of them, I still to this day don’t understand, because they dealt with so much hate.

And my grandma specifically, a story about her is she literally saw her mother get beaten up and dragged to the gas chambers right in front of her, saw other family members get killed right in front of her. Thankfully, she survived with her sister in the camps. They were the only two from her family that survived. And my zadie, he worked as an electrician in a labor camp and he had blonde hair and blue eyes, so he would kind of get away with a lot, and he made friends with one of the guards, and the guard would always tell him if the guard wasn’t going to be there, or the guard would give my zadie extra food. And one day the guard got sick and couldn’t tell my zadie he wasn’t going to be there. So my zadie came back a little late, and for punishment, they made my zadie sleep in a coffin with nails on both sides. So if he moved forward or back, he would get stabbed.

Those are just two stories of many, many, many crazy heartbreaking stories that they had to go through. But my grandparents are the main reason why I’m doing what I’m doing today, and they inspire everything that I do, and it’s crazy how similar are these stories that I’m hearing from today, especially in Israel, how similar they are to things that my grandparents experienced, especially before going into the camps.

Jay Ruderman:

Your last visit, I believe, is with your mother in Auschwitz. And that’s where your great-grandparents were killed, were murdered. What was that experience like?

Montana Tucker:

I thought I was prepared. We did it on the last day of our trip, so we already had a lot of really tough, hard days. It was extremely difficult to see the gas chambers. We stood, my mom and I actually stood by one of the cattle cars that it’s very likely that my grandmother was on that cattle car because it came from Hungary, and it came from the exact time that she got there. And we stood literally in the same spot that pretty much my grandma probably stood to see her mother get dragged and taken to the gas chamber. And I was there arm in arm with my mother sitting there, standing there in the exact spot my grandma had to last see her mother. So I think that was a really powerful moment to be Jewish women, descendants of Holocaust survivors coming there, and standing there, honoring our family and being proud Jewish women. That’s Hitler and the Nazis’ worst nightmare.

[VIDEO CLIP]

Speaker 4:

I want you to tell Montana what happened. I want you to tell standing here what took place on this spot.

Speaker 3:

I think that your great-grandma knew she was going to be marched to her death.

Jay Ruderman:

Very powerful. But I want to talk about your grandparents and what message did they give you regarding what they went through in the Holocaust, and the importance of having a state of Israel right now?

Montana Tucker:

Oh, my grandparents, they’re not from Israel, they’re from Hungary and Romania, but they would talk about how important the state of Israel is for every single Jew around the world. And they would always say they believe the Holocaust would’ve never happened if there was an Israel. And that’s why it drives me crazy when there are Jews around the world that aren’t supporting or not standing for Israel.

Again, this has nothing to do with the government or politics, but Israel is so important for Jews around the world because God forbid there was another Holocaust, which there is not going to be, but God forbid, Israel is the place that we would need. And I went to Israel for the first time on birthright when both of my grandparents were still alive, and they were so happy that I went, and so thankful that I went. And again, I think that’s why once October 7th happened, this instinct in me and this feeling inside of me, it was instant that I knew that I had to do something, and this is my time to step up. And I almost felt my grandparents’ energy and voices inside of me being like, this is it. This is why you’ve built the platform of almost 14 million followers. This is your moment. This is your moment to step up and do everything that you can to combat anti-Semitism, to combat all forms of hate, and to share the truth of what’s going on and the reality, and really try to make a difference.

Jay Ruderman:

So, I have a lot of respect that you have taken your platform and spoken out about Israel, the atrocities of October 7th, but did you ever feel that you were taking a professional risk by talking so publicly about your support to Israel to your huge following?

Montana Tucker:

No. Honestly, I think that right when the 7th happened, I didn’t even think it was going to be a risk. I knew it was something that I had to do, but when I did start posting, I immediately lost hundreds of thousands of followers. And the hate I started receiving was insane. I received some hate when I did my Holocaust series, for sure. But the hate that I received, of course, for talking about Israel was on just a whole other level.

And still to this day, I get death threats every day. Still to this day, the comments people say, I mean, I just came back from Israel filming a documentary about the children of October 7th. Now these kids are not talking about the conflict whatsoever. They’re not involved in politics or anything, and they’re just sharing their personal stories about what happened to them and their family that day.

[VIDEO CLIP]

Speaker 7:

My dad screamed that he lost his arm. I did see my dad fall over, but my mom, I knew she was dead immediately. I just stayed still. I didn’t make a single sound.

Montana Tucker:

And literally people were commenting on my video, “Oh, how much are you getting paid for posting this? You’re such a liar. You propagandist.” How is this propaganda? These are these innocent kids sharing their personal stories. So did I know that this was going to happen? No, but do I regret it? No. And I will never stop posting, and I will never stop sharing. And I think the more hate that I receive, the more it shows me why I’m doing this, and why I need to keep doing this, because these people are so either misinformed or so ignorant to watch a video of a kid crying and sharing their story, and to be able to comment that and say that, that just shows their character and again, shows why I need to keep doing this.

Jay Ruderman:

So first of all, thank you for doing it. And how do you deal with the trolls? I mean, it’s coming at you all the time. How do you deal with it, and how do you deal with your own mental health?

Montana Tucker:

Social media can be such a negative crazy place, but I also believe it can be such a positive, amazing place. It has really the opportunity to impact millions of people around the world from watching a one-minute to two-minute video.

For my mental health personally, I think what keeps me going is just I see how strong Israelis are in general. I see how strong these families of hostages that still have their family members in Gaza. I see how strong these kids, especially for my documentary, that lost both of their parents, Hamas murdered both of their parents, yet these kids still have so much love inside of them and the will to live and thrive. And so when I see that and I’m like, you know what? If they can handle this, I can handle these trolls on social media. So all of that is what keeps me going.

Jay Ruderman:

How does that stay with you? When you talk to people who are… People who’ve been kidnapped and come back, or families who have family members that are kidnapped or have lost loved ones who’ve been murdered, how does that affect you personally?

Montana Tucker:

Yeah, I mean it is been really difficult. I mean, over the past year I’ve met with so many different family members of hostages. I’ve met with many released hostages. I’ve now built friendships with these people that they really do feel like family to me now.

Again, it’s same thing with my grandparents. You can’t imagine what they went through. You can’t imagine what they’re still going through. But again, the fact that they are so strong and resilient, and never gave up, and are still not giving up is so powerful. And really in every interview that I did on my past trip I wanted to break down and cry, and a few of them I did. But I would look them in the eyes and see how strong they’re being and I said, you know what? I need to be strong for them. They’re being strong, I need to be strong. But again, the stories will stay with me forever. Their faces will stay with me forever, but their strength and resilience I hope is what really stays with me forever.

Jay Ruderman:

I want to ask you about what do you think the media and others get so wrong about October 7th and the coverage of the war?

Montana Tucker:

Listen, this conflict, I think… I’m not a historian by any means, and I will never try to make it like I am. Every day I learn so much, and I’m continuing to learn. And I think that’s what’s most important is that everyone needs to be educated and continue to educate themselves, because I think that’s what the issue is. There’s such a lack of knowledge and lack of education, and people just make these assumptions, and all the propaganda that is on social media and in the news is so crazy to me, but people who genuinely don’t know better, they see a video get 20 million views and say, “Okay, this must be true.” Or they see their favorite news station reporting something and they say, “This must be true.” And that’s why for me specifically, it was so important to go to Israel and be on the grounds.

And I’ve been there three or four times since the 7th, and I’m going back again at the end of the month, and I’m going again in January, and I’m not stopping going there, because it’s important to be there on the grounds, interview these survivors. I’ve been to the [inaudible 00:14:52], I’ve been to the Nova site, I’ve been all over. So that way, okay, all this denial that you’re having, well, I’m here. I’m actually physically here and I’m seeing it with my own eyes. And I’ve talked to people of all religions, all races, all walks of life in Israel. And so there’s so many misconceptions about it, and most of the people that are spreading this stuff have never been. I’m like, please come. Come to Israel and see with your own eyes. Come, go visit. Go talk to these people. See it, hear it. Again, everyone has their own individual experiences of course, but when I go there, that’s what I see and that’s what I hear, and I hope that the rest of the world can visit and just see it with their own eyes.

Jay Ruderman:

So thank you for coming to Israel, and thank you for being here. I want to talk about one thing that you did since the attack on October 7th, that you got some survivors of the Nova Festival together, and you did a dance at the Nova Musical Festival site. Why’d you decide to do this, and what were you hoping to get across from this performance?

Montana Tucker:

Yeah, so for me, I was having a little bit of a struggle with combining all my worlds. I felt like I had my activism on one side and then I had my dancing, my singing, my acting over here. And it was really hard for me to combine them because my dancing and my singing and acting is very happy, and I do it to make people smile, and it’s very bright, and colorful, and upbeat, and what was going on in the world was not that at all, and it was the complete opposite of that.

But then I thought to myself, everyone went to that Nova Music Festival to sing, to dance, to hear music. And once I had that realization, I was like, okay, I can do something and I can combine my worlds. And I found a dance group actually, Lilach Friedman Dance Center in Israel who lost three of their members at Nova Festival, and they actually won a dance competition for dedicating this amazing dance number to Nova. And I saw it and I contacted them. I actually was brought out to Israel by Combat Anti-Semitism, CAM. They’re an amazing organization, and they helped me contact this dance group, and they were excited to do this video.

And then we reached out to Nova Survivors seeing if they were comfortable with this, if they’d want to do this, and we ended up doing it. And we went to Re’im and we filmed it, and we had a bunch of Nova survivors, and we had actually Moran Stella Yanai, who was a release hostage. She was at the Nova Festival and was in captivity for 54 days. Her and I actually have become great friends now. I love her so much, and it was just a really powerful moment to see these people standing there strong saying, “we can dance again. We will dance again,” and be there. It was a lot of, some of their first times going back. It was very difficult because a lot of them have so much trauma. It was a very surreal experience, and I’m really happy because I feel that video made a big impact in a really special way.

Jay Ruderman:

First of all, I would urge everyone to watch the video because I think it’s really powerful. I want to ask you about, again, about social media. You often approach people and try to have conversations with them. How do you handle people that disagree with you, whether that’s online or whether you’re meeting them on the street? I remember there was something, I think it was on the Santa Monica Pier where you had an artist that did a rendition of the sweatpants that were worn by one of-

Montana Tucker:

Namalevi.

Jay Ruderman:

… them that was taken hostage, and they were all bloody in Naama Levy. People were approaching you and you were explaining to them what this was about, but how do you handle those type of conversations? Because it’s got to be really difficult. I remember one person walking by you and saying, “Hitler didn’t do his job.” How do you do that and put yourself out there?

Montana Tucker:

It’s interesting because we always go into these videos that I do in public and I always think, okay, we’re going to be met with so much hate, it’s going to get crazy. There’s actually just people who really don’t know about it, which is pretty wild to me that every time I do these videos in public, people genuinely don’t know. And they’re shocked by what we share with them and what we show them, especially the ones with the sweatpants. No one knew about these girls, and these people couldn’t believe what they were watching and what they were hearing. And they told us, “Thank you for educating me and thank you for sharing.” And now they’re going to go home and talk to their friends and their family about it. But then of course it does come with hate. And I did a video with a Muslim peace activist who’s incredible. His name’s Loay Al Shareef.

[VIDEO CLIP]

Loay Al Shareef:

We’re here to convey the message that Muslims and Jews, Arabs and Israelis can unite together for peace and understanding.

Montana Tucker:

If anyone listening doesn’t follow him, you should follow him because he’s been an incredible ally, he’s incredibly educated. He went out with me in public in Santa Monica Pier, and he held up a sign that says something along the lines of, “I’m a Muslim Arab who supports the only Jewish state, Israel.” And then I said something like, “I’m a Jewish American who supports peace with the Middle East,” and we invited people to come and talk to us. And the amount of dirty stares that he got, specifically, like people could not believe that he was supporting Jews in Israel.

People would walk by saying, “Disgusting,” blah, blah, blah. A man from Ireland was there with his wife and two kids, and he had no ties to this conflict whatsoever, he walks by and said, “Hitler had the right idea. Jews are responsible for all the problems in the world.” And was saying this openly loud in front of his kids, like had no shame in talking like this, and now his kids are going to learn from him, and that’s going to be a spiral effect of what they think and feel. But then there was a lady who was from Palestine, and I asked her where she’s from, she said, “Palestine,” and she said, “I support you.” And I said, “What?” And she goes, “I support the peace.” And I could not believe that she said that. I asked, can I please have a hug? I was so grateful for that moment.

And we hugged, and there was another group of kids that were Muslim that were probably in college, and they came up and actually just had an educated conversation. They were asking questions. They didn’t necessarily agree with Loay, but Loay was sharing very specific stories and facts. And even though they didn’t necessarily agree at first, they appreciated the conversation, and it ended up with them being like, “I’m going to go do more research, thank you.” And we all hugged goodbye. So, conversations are so important. I think people are so scared to have them because of how polarizing they could be, or how, I feel like just how much separation and how much hatred there is, and you feel like you have to choose a side or whatever, but it’s not really about that. We all have to listen to each other and understand each other. And I think if there was more of that, I think the world would be a way better place, that’s for sure.

Jay Ruderman:

I want to talk about a video that you did that was very emotional. And it hits home with me because I have a daughter who just started at Columbia, but you were at UCLA and there was an encampment, and you wanted to have a conversation with the pro-Palestinian activists that set up this encampment and they would not talk to you, and it brought tears to your eyes.

[VIDEO CLIP]

Montana Tucker:

I’m just trying to understand what you’re protesting. For some reason, no one from your guys’ team will let you guys speak, and I don’t know why you guys can’t speak to me. And this is so intimidating and scary for you guys to be standing here. I literally have walked around for the past two hours just asking peaceful questions like, “What’s going on here today? Why are you guys here?” No one can speak to me, and you guys are laughing. I don’t understand how this is funny.

Jay Ruderman:

It was extremely powerful to me. But can you talk about what that was like and why you decided to do that, and what brought out the emotion in you?

Montana Tucker:

Yeah, so I went to UCLA maybe like maybe a day or two before it started getting very violent and crazy, but the encampments were already up for a little while. And you hear everything online and you hear, okay, some of them don’t even know why they’re there. Some of them are getting paid, or some of them, just whatever it is.

So I said, okay, I want to go there and I want to have conversations. I want to actually know why they’re there. I want to speak to each other, I want to see if we can come to some kind of understanding with each other. I specifically went there and I didn’t have any of my jewelry on, I wasn’t holding an Israeli flag, or I wasn’t saying anything about Israel or anything at all whatsoever. I was literally just there to say, “Hey, what are you guys doing here today?” And no one would speak to me.

And they were sitting there spray-painting things, and I was like, “Well, you guys are clearly trying to get a message out there. What do you want the world to know?” And they said, “Sorry you have to speak to our media liaison.” And I said, “Okay, I’m just wondering.” I literally would just be like, “I’m just wondering what you guys are doing here. That’s it.” Okay. Then I’m like, okay, fine. I have no problem going to the mediate liaison. I think that’s crazy, that it was like robotic the way that they were all answering me. But fine, I don’t have a problem. I don’t think I’m doing anything wrong.

So I go over to them and I said, “Hi. I would love to interview them, whatever.” The lady knew who I was and said, “We don’t speak to agitators. You’re an agitator. We don’t speak to agitators.” And then she started watching me walk around the whole thing on the outside. I wasn’t allowed inside. I wasn’t allowed inside the encampment, which it makes no sense. It’s public property, okay, but I wasn’t allowed inside.

Then every time I’d walk anywhere, they were following me from the inside while I was walking on the outside to make sure I wouldn’t speak to anybody. And then when I did try to walk in because I said, this is public property, I should be able to walk wherever I want to walk, they started blocking me. And so it started with two people, and then it got to 20 people blocking me from walking. And I would never, ever touch anybody or ever get physical, but if I were to walk, they would’ve physically pushed me if I would’ve kept walking.

And I think what was the hardest moment for me is I was looking them in the eyes like, what are you guys doing? And the amount of it was just this hatred in their eyes. And then they started laughing at me. They were literally laughing. This was a joke. And I just couldn’t believe it. It made me so sad to know that this younger generation, these college students who either their parents have worked so hard their whole lives to send them to college, or they’re working so hard to be in college, and this is what they’re doing with their education? And this is how they’re spending the best years of their lives, having this much hate inside of them?

And it also made me think of my grandparents too. They would tell me stories about friends they were friends with their whole lives, or even… I mean, they weren’t in college yet when they were sent to the camps, but just how everything changed for them, and it was just wild to me. So I think it just really finally hit me that this is the reality of what is going on in the world, and then it only progressively got worse. Thank gosh, it’s better now. But at the time it was terrible.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, I should say there’s a recent Harvard Harris poll that came out that said 81% of Americans support Israel. So you’re encountering students who are very anti-Israel, but I don’t think they represent the majority of the American people.

Montana Tucker:

No. And also at the end of the day, I think especially with the younger generation, everyone wants to be popular and cool, and for whatever reason, it’s popular and cool with the younger generation to be hateful, or to be anti-Israel, or anti-Semitic. But I don’t even know if all of them actually feel that way. They’re just following the trend and wanting to be cool, and I think a lot of these people finally feel like they have a community and they belong somewhere, and if it was popular to be pro-Israel, they would do it too. They just want to follow the trends and be cool.

Jay Ruderman:

And Montana, what do you say to people that say, “Well, I’m not anti-Semitic. I have nothing against the Jews, but I’m anti-Zionist.”

Montana Tucker:

I personally don’t agree with that, and I don’t understand that concept. I don’t know if that’s controversial, but I don’t… Because again, like my grandparents said, the state of Israel is important to every single Jew around the world. And again, you don’t have to agree with someone’s government. It’s like saying, if someone doesn’t agree with our president, are you going to hate all Americans, and are you going to hate America? That’s just not how it works, and that’s not how it should work for Israel as well. And that’s why I always talk about how this is not political. It has nothing to do with politics whatsoever, but I just genuinely don’t understand the concept of Jews not supporting Israel. It boggles my mind personally.

Jay Ruderman:

So Montana people who are listening who want to get involved and speak up about Israeli and anti-Semitism, but they don’t know where to go. Where would you tell them to go to start?

Montana Tucker:

There are so many things you can do. I think people look at me and they’re like, “Oh, well you have 14 million followers, of course you can do this.” But you do not have to have 14 million followers to make a difference, and make an impact, and to stand up. There’s so many organizations you can get involved with and you can help out. If you’re on campus, I know there are so many clubs and organizations on campus that can really help, and feel it, and bring you to a community that supports you.

I think having conversations with friends, even if they don’t agree with you, don’t be scared to have them. Try to open the door for conversation whether it’s your friends, your colleagues, even your family. Some people have family members that are disagreeing with each other. I think try to have conversations and try to come to an understanding. This is a very complicated, hard time that we’re all in right now, but this is the time that we all need to step up, and we all need to do something. We all have the power to make a difference. And I think whatever way you can do it, whether it’s if you have the funds to donate, if you have the voice to speak, if you have the network to gather communities, to do rallies, not protest, not even protests, to do rallies, to support. All of these things make a difference.

Jay Ruderman:

That is great advice. Israel’s been fighting terrorism in the south against Hamas, in the north against Hezbollah, against Iran that’s supporting Hezbollah and Hamas, and the Houthis in Yemen, and the pro-Iranian groups in Iraq. What hope do you have for the region?

Montana Tucker:

It sounds, I feel like so cliche and so beauty pageant, but peace. I mean, I think that if you are discussing this conflict and your goal isn’t peace at the end of the day, you’re on the wrong side. I think every person should want peace.

And again, there are a lot of people who don’t want that, unfortunately. And so I think majority of us need to come together and really just want peace for everybody. And we all need to be united against terrorism at the end of the day. And we know who the terrorists are, we know who the bad guys are, and there are innocent civilians, there are innocent people on all sides, and we all need to come together against this terrorism and really strive and hope for peace.

Jay Ruderman:

Well said. Well, Montana, thank you for everything that you do. You’re amazing, you’re talented, and I wish you to go from strength to strength. I really appreciate you.

Montana Tucker:

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on, and-

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you.

Montana Tucker:

… enjoy Israel, and thank you for being there, and thank you for everything you do as well.

Jay Ruderman:

Today’s episode was produced by Yochai Maital and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or to learn more about the show, you can visit our website, allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We’d really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation. That’s all for now. I’m Jay Ruderman, and we’ll see you next time on All About Change.