TRANSCRIPTION

Katie Barnes:

This nationwide discussion that we’re having about transgender people is actually a conflation of so many different conversations at the same time. Some of which I think are in good faith and some of which I do not believe that is the case.

Jay Ruderman:

Hi, I’m Jay Ruderman and welcome to All About Change, a podcast showcasing individuals who leverage the hardships that have been thrown at them to better other people’s lives.

Montage:

This is all wrong.

I say put mental health first because if you don’t.

This generation of Americans has already had enough.

I stand before you, not as an expert, but as a concerned citizen.

Jay Ruderman:

Today I’m speaking with award-winning sports journalists, Katie Barnes. Their extensive work has brought the conversation around transgender athletes, straight from school gymnasiums into people’s homes.

Katie Barnes:

I thought, “Oh, this is really interesting, I want to write about it.” And at the time I just didn’t foresee that it would be the political topic that it has become.

Jay Ruderman:

Katie is gendered nonconforming and uses they/them pronouns. In 2019, they were the executive producer of the documentary Mack Wrestles, which tells the story of transgender wrestler Mack Beggs.

Katie Barnes:

This was a story that blew up in a very short amount of time, and it burned white-hot. In that 2017 summer, he was kind of everywhere when it came to discussions of transgender athletes and transgender people.

Jay Ruderman:

At the time, Katie thought writing about the cross section of sports and gender would be a small part of their career in journalism. They now see it as the most important part of their job, serving communities on both sides of a critical issue with empathy.

Katie Barnes:

Everybody has a position on this issue, they have a bias on this issue. And I think that’s true in general when it comes to journalism that we’re all still humans, the most important thing is not to allow those biases that we have to unfairly guide us in our pursuit of a story.

Jay Ruderman:

So Katie, thank you so much for being my guest on All About Change. I want to tell you I really enjoyed your book and I learned a lot. Can you tell us a little bit about how you fell in love with sports?

Katie Barnes:

Sports was always a big part of my family culture. Whether it was playing sports as kids, basketball was my primary sport, and I played that competitively for most of my childhood. It was something that I don’t remember a life without.

Jay Ruderman:

I see. And I think you said that when you first wrote about transgender in sports, you thought it would be a one-off, and now you think it’s going to become something that you’ll continue to write about for the rest of your career. Why is that?

Katie Barnes:

So, I ended up pursuing a story about Mack Beggs, who was a subject of a chapter in the book, but also was one of the subjects of my very first stories. And at the time I didn’t think it was going to be… Not that the issue would go away, I didn’t really think that, but I didn’t foresee that it would be the just political topic that it has become. And so now there’s so much energy around having these discussions, some of which I think are in good faith and some of which I do not believe that is the case.

Soundbite:

Now let me ask you as someone who’s competed at the elite level, in your experience, is there a difference between women and men?

Katie Barnes:

And so because of that, I have a hard time believing that this is something that’s going to be resolved in the next few years. And I’ve spent so much time on the topic that even though I thought originally I’d probably just write about this once, maybe twice, it’s become something that has defined my professional career thus far.

Jay Ruderman:

Can you talk a little bit about Mack Beggs and his story? I found it fascinating.

Katie Barnes:

So, Mack Beggs is a wrestler in Texas. At the time of the film, it was 2018 was when we were filming, but he won a state high school championship in wrestling in the girls’ category. And Mack, as you can hear, we use he/him pronouns for him, he is a transgender boy. And Texas is one of the only states, there are a few, it’s about a handful that have separate categories for boys and girls wrestling. A lot of states have one unified wrestling category and then girls can compete, but there isn’t a separate girls’ wrestling sport that is sanctioned by the state.

And so because of the existence of that category, and then also the Texas policy at the time was not yet law, that basically said that your gender eligibility was determined by your birth certificate that required Mack to wrestle in the girls’ category as that was how his family interpreted that policy. And then on top of that, Mack was also medically transitioning. And so that was a big part of the story where under the guidance of his doctor, he was taking testosterone as part of his medical transition and wrestling in the girls’ category. And a lot of people saw that as doping. And so the whole thing just really blew up and he became the subject of certainly one bill that was filed in Texas that did not pass, but in that 2017 summer, he was kind of everywhere.

Soundbite:

Anybody can wrestle. No matter who you put across the bat, it don’t matter, it just comes down to technique and who has the most heart. And I put too much tears, I put too much blood, sweat and tears, I put too much BS into this journey, that I wanted to come out on top of it.

Jay Ruderman:

And by interesting is that Mack actually wanted to wrestle on the boys team in the boys’ division in Texas, but was not allowed to.

Katie Barnes:

Yeah, he always said that he wanted to wrestle on the boys team. However, under Texas policy at the time, he was not eligible to wrestle on the boys’ category. That said, there was a period of time where he was wrestling boys, and that happened in the spring and early summer after his second championship. And he wrestled boys and he won and he qualified for nationals. He ended up not competing at nationals after being kicked off the team for not attending practices, which is chronicled in Mack Wrestles. And so I think for a lot of people who say, “Well, he should have been wrestling boys,” Mac would agree with that, he would’ve preferred that. And when he did do it, he was still quite a good athlete and successful in his own right.

Jay Ruderman:

So, can we talk a little bit about the opposition? Because one thing that stuck out in the film for me is after he would finish wrestling, his coach would take him and bring him into the hallway. That the abuse that was being leveled at him was so great that they wanted him just not to be there and be present and to have a little distance from that. And I know that’s something that you’ve covered, so can you talk a little bit about that?

Katie Barnes:

It’s unclear if the response from his coach was specifically around the abuse from the stands in terms of boos and things of that nature. I think it was actually more because of the intense amount of scrutiny. And it’s really hard to describe what Mack was experiencing during that time because this was a story that blew up in a very short amount of time and it burned white-hot. There were so many cameras and journalists camped out near his grandmother’s house, the Texas State Wrestling Championship had never seen a media response like this one before. And so it was incredibly intense. You see that in some of the footage of Mack stretching before he competed where there’s just a semicircle of cameras in his face. And so I always interpreted him being sort of whisked away between wrestling bouts as protecting him from that scrutiny, so that he could stay focused. Because otherwise, I don’t know how you who are 17 years old and you remained focused in that environment. It’s so much.

Jay Ruderman:

What is becoming very clear, and maybe we can get into this a little bit, is that the governing bodies that are determining when transgender athletes can compete and if they can compete is often state by state or maybe local community by local community. And even in terms of more elite Olympics NCAA on a national or international level, it just seems so confusing about how this issue is being approached by society.

Katie Barnes:

Yeah. So, we’re in a really clear period of just an incredible amount of policy upheaval. And so what I mean by that is from about 2010ish until 2020, I would say there was a general consensus for what policy sort of looked like. And there are exceptions to this of course, but there was an idea that in order to be eligible for the women’s category if you were a transgender woman, you needed to suppress your testosterone for a year and it needed to be under 10 nanomoles per liter, which is just your level of free floating testosterone. And that was kind of the status quo at the school level, meaning K12 sports. It varied depending on where you lived pretty clearly. But there has never been in the United States a national policy of sorts that dictates on this particular topic. There are different legal discussions about whether or not and how Title IX applies, but when it comes to this is how you handle transgender athletes in school sports, there is not a national law for that.

Jay Ruderman:

And is there any attempt by the federal government to provide some guidelines for states?

Katie Barnes:

So, I mentioned Title IX. I view a lot of the back and forth that we’re experiencing in the United States started with Title IX, honestly. And so in 2016, the Obama administration provided guidance essentially saying, “This is what we expect and we think Title IX protects transgender students in this particular way. Here is how you’ll be inclusive. And if you are not following this guidance, then you are perhaps not compliant with Title PX.” Title IX as a law is something that is often described as being the thing that gave us women’s sports and girls’ sports in schools. And that’s true, but the law actually has nothing to do with sports.

It’s 37 words that just says that all students should be able to access education and shall not be discriminated against on the basis of sex, and that it includes education and activities, and the activities is where the sports thing kicks in. And so when that happened, about 23 states sued the Obama administration to say, “We think this is unfair. We think this is an overreach by the federal government.” And so that guidance never went into effect. Fast-forward, the Trump administration rescinded the guidance.

Soundbite:

I will ask Congress to pass a bill establishing that the only genders recognized by the United States government are male and female, and they are assigned at birth.

Katie Barnes:

And then when the Biden administration took over, they didn’t release the same guidance again. Instead, they have proposed a regulatory change for the Title IX regulations as they stand that essentially says, “Blanket bans on transgender girls competing in girls sports are not appropriate under Title IX, but there are certain circumstances,” that they do not give them,” when some restrictions may be appropriate and in compliance with Title IX.” So, trying to thread a very specific needle. And in the midst of all of that, the US House of Representatives also passed a bill that looks very similar to a lot of the legislation that has passed in now 23 states across the country that restricts eligibility for girls and women’s sports.

Jay Ruderman:

Is this all about politics? Is this about discrimination? Is this about misunderstanding? It feels like the divide in our country and how we are sort of at war with ourselves on so many different issues that there are states and communities that believe in inclusion and acceptance, and then there are communities that do not believe in that.

Katie Barnes:

I think the hardest thing about this nationwide discussion that we’re having about transgender people broadly, but of course the area that I cover in terms of how that applies to sports is actually a conflation of so many different conversations at the same time. There are some people who have good faith questions about what policy should be when it comes to governing eligibility for sports. And ask the question, “Well, is it fair given everything that I know about the differences in biological sex, about the differences that I have been taught about these sexes, is it fair for someone who is assigned male at birth to compete in women’s sports? And under which circumstances would my answer be yes?” And I think that is a question that a lot of people are asking.

And I also think there are people for whom the answer to that question is never. And when thinking about why in terms of how they characterize the conversation, it becomes clear that there’s also a desire to not validate who transgender people are. So, what I mean by that is the use of terminology that erases identity, so not saying transgender girls or transgender women and instead using alternative descriptions, not using an athlete’s pronouns and name that they use and instead using a name that they do not use anymore and using pronouns that they might have used in an earlier time. That isn’t a discussion about appropriate policy, that is a fundamental difference in worldview in certain regard. And so it can be really hard to sift through exactly what we’re talking about because they sound the same, and they’re not always the same.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. You start in your introduction with a quote from a lawmaker who you don’t identify, but it’s a very crude quote sort of saying, “Listen, if anyone wants to say that they’re a woman, it can be in women’s sports, what happens to women’s sports?”

Soundbite:

I can tell you this, in Florida, girls are going to play girl sports and boys are going to play boys sports. That’s what we’re doing, and we’re going to make [inaudible 00:15:37].

Jay Ruderman:

How do you answer that question? So, how did that hit you when you were asked that and what did it make you think?

Katie Barnes:

At that time, I hadn’t considered that question or hadn’t considered the viewpoint of someone who might ask that question in such a way. And so I think I was at first a little taken aback because I was surprised, and then it was something that I considered a lot because it’s something that I hear a lot now. This feeling of, “Well, if we let trans women participate in women’s sports, then there will no longer be women’s sports.” And there are a lot of people who really believe that. And if that is what they believe and that is the question I’m being asked, then I felt like it was really important to seek to answer that question in a substantive and meaningful way.

Jay Ruderman:

Which is what your book is about, Fair Play, which is coming out next month. And I would urge all our listeners to pick up a copy because it’s a fascinating history and I think that it’s very readable and enjoyable. There’s something that you write in the book about being a journalist, which it really struck me. You say that, “In journalism we focus a lot on objectivity or the idea of being a neutral arbiter who is positionless. I don’t think of my role that way. Instead, I think it’s most important that my biases and positions are known and that fairness and truth be my guide, none of us are neutral.” I thought that was very powerful. Because usually you talk to a journalist, they’re like, “Listen, I just report.” But that’s a very unique position. I think it’s a very honest position. Maybe you can talk about how you approach your journalism.

Katie Barnes:

Yeah. I think that summed it up pretty well. I forgot I wrote that. That is very true to how I approach the journalism I do, especially on this topic. And I think folks are often surprised that I do talk to so many people, but I think it’s really important to do so. If something is “controversial”, it means that there’s multiple sides inherently in that description. And so I think it’s important to capture that. But I also think when it comes to this particular topic, folks have opinions and they often ask me mine. That was something that I have found in my reporting, both in my everyday professional job and also in reporting this book, everybody has a position on this issue, they have a bias on this issue. And I think that’s true in general when it comes to journalism, we’re all still humans, I think it’s important to acknowledge our humanity.

And the most important thing is not to allow those biases that we have or those thoughts that we have to unfairly guide us in our pursuit of a story in terms of who we ask questions. The kinds of questions we ask, to what we include in our stories or not, all of those are decisions and those decisions are guided by our own perspectives and viewpoints. And so for me, I think it’s really important to know where my own perspective is and to allow that to be challenged, so that I can make the best decision when it comes to what I’m including and why, and feel good about whether or not this was fair and whether or not it was accurate. I think sometimes journalists can fall behind a veil of objectivity as a means of obfuscating the fact that perhaps they weren’t entirely fair. I don’t think that serves a reader or the communities that we’re reporting on.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. Well, that’s very profound. And do you feel that your employer is backing you up and says, “I get your point of view, and you’re adding something to the conversation. And you’re approaching it in the right way”?

Katie Barnes:

I’ve always felt really supported by ESPN, and that it’s a great place to work and I love doing the work that I get to do. And so I’ve never felt like I have not been supported.

Jay Ruderman:

You’re a journalist who’s reporting on a subject matter that’s controversial in our society. How do you deal with the blowback on social media, on, I don’t know, emails, general public, how they’re responding to your reporting?

Katie Barnes:

If it’s in good faith, I’m always willing to have a conversation. If you want to send me a message and ask me questions, I will answer those messages. If you want to comment on a photo of me and my wife saying nasty things, I will delete the comment and block you immediately. Like for me, it’s not that deep.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, that’s a good policy. What changes do you think need to be made in sports to allow more transgender inclusion?

Katie Barnes:

As I say in my book, I think that the restrictions currently are just too broad. So, there are a few things that I’m certainly in favor of, which is fewer restrictions in youth sports. I think that is absolutely appropriate. But also, I would love to see more co-ed sports. I’d love to see us sex separate later. I played soccer growing up, and in second grade we were already on girls and boys teams. And why? We don’t necessarily need to do that. And so I think it would be good if we did that less, for a number of reasons, most of them cultural. Right?

I think it’s a really important lesson and gaining confidence if you are somebody who is a little girl and you beat a boy when you’re told that girls should never beat boys. And I think if you’re a boy, it’s important to learn to lose to somebody who just beat you. And that’s good. And if you are somebody who is more gender expansive and you’re figuring it out, I know that who I was as a kid, you are not put into a box so young. And so in general, I think that would be really good. And that’s not just about inclusion for young trans people, it’s also about a more healthy society from a gender relationships perspective in terms of what we think about sports, what we think about men and women, I think that would be really healthy.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. What is your feeling towards… I don’t know what an elite athlete is, I don’t know if elite athlete is Division 1 in college or elite athlete is a professional athlete, but what are your feelings about restrictions at that level?

Katie Barnes:

I think from a restriction standpoint, I believe in a pathway to participation period. I think that trans women in particular should be allowed. If you want to have them jump through hoops, that’s fine, but they need to be able to actually jump through those hoops to then compete in the women’s category. There has yet to be a real example of just trans women dominating in women’s sports at the Olympic level. And I say this in Fair Play, my perspective is informed by where we are today, and if things were to occur that would have me change my perspective, I think it’s important that we can change our minds. But for where we are at right now today, I don’t think there really is a reason to have a blanket restriction that says, “No trans women after puberty ever.”

When it comes to swimming and track and power lifting, we’re talking about speed and strength and power and explosion. I get it, I understand why people want restrictions. I think restrictions are appropriate. But three years of testosterone suppression, is that enough? Saying that you have to transition before Tanner stage 2 puberty, which is very early puberty or you’re never allowed to compete at the elite level, I don’t think the science supports that, frankly.

Jay Ruderman:

I just want to touch on the case of Lia Thomas at University of Pennsylvania, and that she was a trans woman who had gone, what my understanding is, over and above what the NCAA was requiring in terms of testosterone suppression, but yet there was a tremendous amount of controversy around her.

Soundbite:

They are putting ideology ahead of opportunity for women athletes.

It’s happening all across the country to girls and women of all ages, all sports, all divisions, and it’s a travesty.

The swimmer, I told you about the swimmer. And it really hurts women, it’s the opposite of dignity, it’s horrible.

Jay Ruderman:

What do you make of that controversy?

Katie Barnes:

So, you have a swimmer who spent three years swimming in the men’s category, and now was in the women’s category and had just put up the top times in the nation in her swimming distances. And oh, by the way, she’s six four. Right? So, when you look at it like that, especially if she’s being characterized as a mediocre men swimmer or below average male swimmer, if that is your characterization of what occurred previously, then I think a lot of folks were like, “Well, that’s not fair.” And so as that was occurring, I think it really just touched a nerve in our society. I remember I was in Atlanta and covering the national championships, and I was just kind of walking around talking to people, just chatting, it wasn’t a serious interview. And I remember having a conversation with someone, and she said to me, “Well, I just think that there should be a policy.”

And I was like, “Well, did you know that the NCAA actually already does have a policy?” And she was like, “No, I didn’t know that.” And so we kind of talked about it, and I was like, “Did you know that Lia had actually met that policy and then some?” And she’s like, “No, I didn’t know that either.” And so I think when it comes to how Lia’s story was disseminated through the public, obfuscates the truth that, yes, for two years she swam on the men’s team. That is true. And after her sophomore year, she began testosterone suppression, so that third year she was swimming on the men’s team in a women’s bathing suit. That was happening, there’s photographic evidence of that. And then she had another year off because of COVID. And so by the time she got into the pool, she had undergone 29 months, I think, of testosterone suppression. And that was more than double what the NCAA required at the time. And folks, they just didn’t know that, that was not a core part of the original narrative.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. Usually in our society, the media focuses on loud people, people who are in opposition, people who are making a lot of noise. What can the parents of trans children or the athletes themselves do to amplify their voices?

Katie Barnes:

That’s a really tricky question. There’s a tremendous amount of risk right now being a family with a transgender athlete. Even in states where you are complying with the laws and policies and you’re eligible to compete, if you are a transgender athlete, you can still be outed publicly and then experience a tremendous amount of backlash. We have seen that happen over and over again in the last year with high school transgender athletes actually, usually transgender girls who are teenagers and who are not doing anything wrong. And it’s very scary for these families. And so I think for a number of families with trans kids and for transgender people in general, being quiet right now is what feels safe, and that’s very hard.

Jay Ruderman:

So, is there a way in today’s day and age when there’s harassment, restrictive laws, that transgender athletes, non-binary student athletes can thrive in sports?

Katie Barnes:

I think for me, when I think about in totality, how can we ensure that all of our students are able to thrive and have a high-quality education and athletic experience, it’s to be educated on the topics as much as we can be. And to provide support for all athletes, and that includes cisgender athletes and transgender athletes and non-binary athletes. And can you create an inclusive experience for all students and all kids where you are, I think really benefits a tremendous amount of kids outside of the scope of what I typically cover.

Jay Ruderman:

Yeah. Well, Katie, I want to thank you for being my guest on All About Change. Your book Fair Play is not to be missed. I would urge all my listeners to pick it up and read it and learn, and try to make our society a more equitable place. So, thank you so much.

Katie Barnes:

Thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it. And thank you for taking the time to read Fair Play. That truly means a lot.

Jay Ruderman:

In so many of the stories Katie shared with me, the key component was context or lack thereof. Whatever the reason, people they spoke to weren’t getting the full story, just the bullet points. Knowledge is power and the narratives presented in the media we consume can turn the tide of public opinion in completely different directions. Our conversation helped me understand how crucial it is to avoid sacrificing context in the name of grabbing more headlines. That’s it for today’s episode. In two weeks, we’ll be joined by Jas Boothe, a former military service member who turned her own heart-wrenching struggle into a new narrative of hope for female veterans in need.

Today’s episode was produced by Kim Huang, the story editing by Yochai Maital and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or learn more about the show, you can visit our website allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We would really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation. Special thanks to our production team at Pod People, David Zwick, Grace Pina, Morgane Fouse, Bryan Rivers, and Aimee Machado. That’s all for now. I’m Jay Ruderman, and we’ll see you next time on All About Change.