TRANSCRIPTION

Jay Ruderman:

Welcome to All About Change.

Mijon Zulu:

Today we’re doing things a little bit differently. As you might hear from my voice, I’m clearly not Jay Ruderman. I’m Mijon Zulu, managing producer of All About Change, and today I have the privilege of speaking to Jay about his brand new book, Find Your Fight. Find Your Fight teaches the next generation of activists and advocates how to step up and bring about lasting change. Over the past 145 episodes of All About Change, Jay has talked with activists who have each found their fight. Their work inspires us at the Ruderman Family Foundation and we certainly hope it inspires you all. Of course, Jay is not just a podcast host, so we’re doing things a little differently today. Jay is going to be in the guest seat and we’re going to talk about his book. So without further ado, Jay, welcome to your podcast to talk about your book.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you, Mijon. It feels weird to be on the other side.

Mijon Zulu:

Well, I mean, I love this idea because I feel like there are people who may have been listening to this podcast for years, or maybe they’re new listeners, but they might not know as much about you. They might not know as much about your own beliefs about activism, why that’s inspired, why it’s important for you to share a book like this. And I really feel like this is kind of like, you know, are all about Jay and passing on some of the observations that you’ve learned as an activist and really just showing that there’s a through line in what people are doing, whether or not they’re doing the same type of activism that you’ve been involved in.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, the book, Find Your Fight, is really 20 years in the making. I’ve been involved as an activist for a long time on the issues that were important to me and to my family, but I’ve also been a podcaster for a while and I’ve met many, many activists who are doing various types of activism. And I’ve learned so much from them, including others who I’ve just read about. I think activism is the core to changing our society, and so I wrote the book as sort of a how to guide, how to become a more effective activist and I weave in my own stories, but the stories of others, people I’ve interviewed, people that I’ve learned about, and I hope that people will find it helpful.

Mijon Zulu:

I really felt that while I was reading the book because it’s not a memoir, as you like to say, but you get to hear your own journey in terms of starting out, working in politics, also being inspired by your own family, and then choosing to really go after something. How does one choose a cause to go after and feel comfortable doing that?

Jay Ruderman:

It’s very personal and I think it requires a deep dive. First of all, most of us care about many different issues. We’re humans, we’re members of the world’s community and we care about each other and we care about the world, and we have different things that we care very deeply about. But you have to look into yourself and say, what is the most important? Or what are the few things that I care the most about that when I wake up in the morning, when I wake up in the middle of the night, what am I thinking about? And that’s really what you have to make your focus on as an activist. It doesn’t mean you don’t have to care about other things, but you really have to do that deep dive and think about it.

Mijon Zulu:

You know, most people listening to this who’ve experienced the podcast might not really understand how you decided that activism was important and then decided to go after that. What was that journey like for you?

Jay Ruderman:

I write about this in the book and it’s going to sound a little bit corny, and I hesitated to put this in the book because it’s very vulnerable, but when I was very, very young, maybe 11 years old in summer camp, and I was on a swing set and having this, why am I here, what is life about? And I was like, it was almost like a spiritual moment. And I’m like, well, life is about helping other people and I’m going to try to devote my life to helping other people. My 11-year-old mind until my 20-something-year-old mind said, “Oh, well that means getting involved in politics.” And you know I grew up in Massachusetts where the Kennedy family was our ideal. And-

Mijon Zulu:

That’s so funny that the Kennedys were like, you’re like, oh, this is who we are.

Jay Ruderman:

… Right. I built my life towards going to law school, getting involved in politics, and then at some point I’m like, “Well, politics seems pretty crappy.” Becoming a professional fundraiser essentially, and playing the game. I think that that just sort of evolved over time to saying, no, why don’t I just get out there and talk about the issues that I really care about. And I think that that was sort of my evolution. I still want to help people and give back, and I think that’s sort of where it all comes from for me. But most people, their lives take twists and turns like mine has.

Mijon Zulu:

Yeah.

Jay Ruderman:

My activism started very, very young.

Mijon Zulu:

That’s so funny.

Jay Ruderman:

But it took me a while to figure out how to do it, which is one reason why I think the book is important because I think you can read it or listen to it and be like, “Oh, this can help me figure out how to start doing something and making a difference about something I really care about.”

Mijon Zulu:

Working in politics, you do do a lot of networking with strangers and one day you might say it’s community organizing. Did you feel like that skill set translated into your later work?

Jay Ruderman:

I do think that politicians know how to grab attention. Now, they’re grabbing attention for themselves. It’s not often issue-based, and I think that activism, someone has to stand up and do it, someone has to do it, and human nature, we are attracted to personalities. I’m not saying put an issue out there and don’t be identified with it, but activism is more about promoting the issue. This issue affects me. I want to make a difference about it. So I think the politics taught me how to grab attention. I think law taught me how to organize my thoughts, which is another thing because we also see people out there yelling and screaming and they’re not organized.

Mijon Zulu:

And they can’t present their ideas if they’re yelling and screaming.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. I think most people are good, okay, and I think activism is really about getting to the hearts and minds of people. People react negatively to injustice and when you can talk about injustice and how society can be better without that injustice, people inherently get that. We may go through periods of time where hate rises up. I don’t think hate changes our society for the better.

Mijon Zulu:

No.

Jay Ruderman:

I fundamentally don’t believe that. I know we’re living in a very hateful time right now, but any activism that is built on hate and violence, ultimately will not be successful

Mijon Zulu:

In the book, there are a bunch of steps that people can take and really finding that cause, just to use an example of Chrissy Beckles, who was also a guest on the podcast. She went to Puerto Rico and she saw these stray dogs at Dead Dog Beach as it used to be called. She left the island and she’s like, “I have to do something.” She really felt the cause. So she really was able to sort of say, there’s something that I will lose sleep over and that I really want to make change in, and then I’m going to focus on it.

Jay Ruderman:

I think that it’s about injustice and I think we all experience injustice in different ways. It could be like Chrissy, you know, walking across a beach and seeing hundreds of dogs and saying, “Why are these dogs here starving to death and why aren’t I doing something about it?” It could be someone like Nicole Hockley who lost a son at the Sandy Hook School shooting. There’s so many different examples of how you find what means the most to you, but we all care about things deeply and we all have the time to do something about it. And sometimes people think, “Oh, well, the issue is so big I can’t really do anything about it.” Well, number one, you’re not in it alone. You always have to work with others. And the book talks about how to build allyship, how to find people to work with on things that you’re not good at.

Mijon Zulu:

One of the steps that’s talked about in the book is not just being able to know your facts, but also being able to confront people in a productive way. So how do you find the balance between confronting people in a productive way but not being a troll?

Jay Ruderman:

I think that when you come out and you talk about an issue and it’s controversial, you have to know what you’re talking about. You can’t just go out in the street and march around and shout about slogans or write a press release, or put something on social media, that you don’t really know. You have to spend the time to know your facts. If that’s not your thing to do research, then find a buddy or find someone that you can work with that really can do the research. And then you have to gain attention. For any activist, you have to gain attention. Whether it’s traditional media that you want them to cover your issue or whether it’s social media.

Mijon Zulu:

Both you and one of our guests both called out Dwayne the Rock Johnson for the movie Skyscraper, and even when she talked about it on the podcast, but also when you were talking on the podcast, it was about drawing attention to an issue and not doing it in a hundred percent negative way, but really drawing attention to the importance of inclusivity in film. How did you come from politics into addressing inclusivity around disability in the world?

Jay Ruderman:

When I got involved seriously full-time in activism, disability was an issue that was already something that was there that my family had experienced. My father developed a disease called alpha-1 antitrypsin, where his lung capacity was reduced over time. He passed away in 2011. My nephew was born with autism. I have some with ADHD. I myself have dealt with depression, so disability was all around us. Like everyone deals with disability, but society saw disability as segregation. And I think when we got involved, my background in politics and rights, and I was educated by many people about disability rights, and our added value was sort of to provide the research to do programs that impacted millions of people. But I think as an activist, when I really sort of jumped from creating programs to getting attention, was to call out people who were saying derogatory things about disability, were treating disability in a way that was not productive for society, and I think that’s how we created controversy.

Creating controversy by calling people on the carpet, people in positions of power. Now, I don’t think we did it in a way that was hateful or mean, but we did it in a strong way. And by the way, I am against activism that is based on hate, that is based on creating fear in people, but public figures, whether they be political figures or celebrities or whatever, I think that they are fair game, as long as you do it and you talk about an issue, and you don’t go after them based on personal characteristics or lifestyle or anything like that.

Mijon Zulu:

You’re attacking the issue, not the person.

Jay Ruderman:

Exactly.

Mijon Zulu:

I loved seeing the through line of how you can use drawing attention to actually make some lasting change. Just the example of starting a conversation around whether people can take a pledge to create some change behavior, whether it be how you’re referring to injured players in the major league baseball team, or whether or not you’re committing to actually have parity. We’ve been talking about disability inclusion, but also like Geena Davis for example, really pushing to make sure that we actually have women in films who are not just the girlfriend, the wife, or the maid. Actually saying with some of these extra characters, some of them can be women.

Jay Ruderman:

So Geena is a great activist, she’s a great actor, but in Hollywood, she is seen as the gold standard in terms of activism. And she knew that both in children’s programming and in adult programming, women were not being portrayed on an equal level on screen as men, and she was able to have conversations with studios and change that, and bring parity in film. That’s a great example of how someone through their diligence and persistence was able to really effectuate change. So I think Geena and I have, first of all, we’re friends, we’re allies, and we do work together. We had a different tactic of how to gain attention. First of all, Geena Davis is an Oscar award-winning actor, and immediately could open doors in Hollywood. When we got into, or when I got involved in entertainment, I’m from Boston, I don’t live in LA. I don’t have an office in LA. I knew very few people in LA. So we sort of got involved in the issue by accident.

We started to criticize film for the inauthentic portrayal of disability, and we would criticize films and people portraying characters inauthentically, and get a lot of media attention. That was key for us to get that media attention in order so that when I knocked on the door of, let’s say CBS or whatever, they knew who I was. And that’s very important, whether you do it through traditional media or social media or whatever, when you want to have that discussion and turn from a gadfly who’s saying, “You’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong.” To saying, “Let’s see how we can fix this.” You have to be known. And so where we made the switch was we started to meet with studios, Tiffany Smith-Annoyé, when we met with CBS, when I said, “I’d like your studio to pledge to open all your editions to actors with disabilities.” She’s like, “Yeah, I’ll sign.” But then we go on to other studios, Sony, NBCUniversal, Paramount, a little bit trickier. They would meet with us, they knew who we were, but that’s when allyship comes into play.

And to meet people who believe what you believe, and can open the door. And that’s where someone like Peter Farrelly or Bobby Farrelly come into play. Where they were able to pick up the phone and talk to the studio and say, “Yeah, I’m with Jay on this.” And that really-

Mijon Zulu:

Jay, the outsider from Boston.

Jay Ruderman:

Right, exactly.

Mijon Zulu:

Yeah.

Jay Ruderman:

So that’s another part of the book, allyship. You have to find those allies and they were out there, and you got to do your work and find them. And that’s how we were able to, I think, come from way outside of really not being in the entertainment world to really creating real change within the entertainment society.

Mijon Zulu:

Obviously, long-time listeners of the podcast know that there are certain issues that really do matter to you, like animal rights, Israel representation in Hollywood, but we’ve had such a wide range of guests on the show. How do you learn from people whose causes, they might not overlap with you, but there may be things that you can take away from their journey?

Jay Ruderman:

So first of all, I learn something from every person I speak to or every person I’ve read about. You have to listen, listen to what they’re saying. Listen to how they’ve gone about it. It may not be, there’s no blueprint in activism. There’s no like, oh, this is the way you should do it. Just follow this blueprint and you’ll be successful. I would say that the one thing that’s important for every activist is to be persistent, and that’s what I find in every activist. They are persistent. And by the way, there are drawbacks. There are setbacks. Look at the issue of reproductive rights. I grew up Roe v. Wade was the law of the land. Reproductive rights was taken for granted, and then recently, last few years, Dobbs decision comes down and that is taken away and sent back to the states.

Speaker 1:

Terry Moran, who has covered the Supreme Court for years, and he’s at the court tonight.

Speaker 2:

At the Supreme Court today, an historic upheaval. In a sweeping ruling that overturned a half a century of precedents, five justices ended the right of American women to choose abortion under the Constitution.

Jay Ruderman:

You can’t rest on your laurels. It’s a lifelong pursuit.

Mijon Zulu:

Both you and Gloria Feldt, when she was on the podcast, talked about the importance of resilience and knowing that some fights are very long and you will get tired, but you pick yourself back up and you keep going. Obviously, we’ve talked about a bunch of the steps, but I really appreciated in the book how the last two were also about celebration and joy and self-care, because it is a long fight depending on what the fight is. So what role has resilience played in your journey as an activist, and what role do you think it should play for other activists?

Jay Ruderman:

I think for me, friends, people that I’m very close to, people I work with, are very important, because you will have setbacks. And it helps me to talk through them to figure out a way forward. And I think that that’s, first of all, it’s important to celebrate victories. Sometimes as activists we’re like, “Oh, okay, great. We accomplished this. So what’s the next thing?” You have to step back and say, this was a big deal. We helped effectuate change, and then you have to also take care of yourself. People that we know as successful activists, we may not know everything about them, but believe me, they are celebrating their victories and they are taking the time to take care of themselves.

Mijon Zulu:

Otherwise, it’s not going to be sustainable. Obviously, there was this, not only is self-care important, but also knowing your no. Can you explain what that means? Because I feel like that’s something that not everyone thinks about. They’re like, if I’m dedicated to a cause, I just have to keep going no matter what.

Jay Ruderman:

Right.

Mijon Zulu:

But being able to say no, it’s actually very powerful as well.

Jay Ruderman:

A strong piece of advice that I could give to someone is, in your gut, if you feel that this connection is not the right connection, I’m all in favor of allyship and working with other people, but when you meet that person when you’re like, “This doesn’t feel right.” Trust your gut and say, “No, I can’t work with you.” Also, as you have more success as an activist, you’re going to be approached on all different causes. Can you get involved in my cause, which has to do with this? And you may say, “Gee, I’m an activist on the environment and someone’s approaching me about reproductive rights, and yeah, I really care about that.” But if your brand is, you know, I’m focusing on the environment, you have to stick to that. That has to be what you’re known for. It doesn’t mean that out of your pocket, you can’t help someone and give them some money, or you can’t go help them one afternoon or whatever, but you’ve built a brand as an activist known for one thing. Once you start spreading out and taking on a million different causes, you’re going to lose your effectiveness as an activist.

Mijon Zulu:

This book is coming out now. You’ve had the podcast. It’s kind of like a love letter in both ways, but why do you think this book, why now, and what sort of change do you hope that it affects?

Jay Ruderman:

I hope it’s useful to people. I think it will be useful to people. I think this book is good for anyone who cares about the world. You can be finishing high school and say, “I really care about the future of my world. I’m concerned. There’s a particular issue I really want to focus on. How do I do it?” It’s sort of a how-to book. How to get started, how to continue, how to have success. It’s not a blueprint. I mean, you don’t have to follow my example, and by the way, it’s not just my example, it’s many other stories.

Mijon Zulu:

Yeah, like Genesis Butler, who was a little kid when she got started.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. It’s very important because some people will look at me as the author and say, “Oh, well, you’re a philanthropist, of course. You have money. You’re able to invest in things. You’re able to create change.” But if you look at the examples, Genesis Butler started her activism when she was 10 years old. She gave a TED Talk. She became known by celebrities like Paul McCartney, the Pope, as someone who was promoting veganism, the protection of animals, and didn’t start with any money. She was just talented at getting her voice out there. By the way, social media is the great equalizer. If you’re talented, if you’re well-spoken, if you can get your message across to people who think like you, you’re going to gain a following. You don’t have to put any money into social media. Open an account and start talking, and if you are talented at it, you’re going to gather a following. That’s what Genesis Butler did. I think this book, anyone can pick it up and they can go through it and say, “Yeah, that part makes sense to me.” Or, “This story resonates with me. Yeah, I should be doing that better.” And I think it will help make people more effective at changing the world.

Mijon Zulu:

And it’s incredible to really think about just you paralleling your own use of social media in the same way that like Genesis Butler might be doing it, and that we are living in this digital world where we can affect change from any vantage point of society. You’re a grown man with kids giving young activists social media advice, which is great.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, but I’m not, you know, I mean, social media is not my strength. Okay. I do it because I think I need to do it, but I see others who are much better at it than I am. I enjoy podcasting because I like having conversations. I like meeting people. I like hearing their stories about activism. And social media, by the way, 2025, right now, we’re talking about social media. Social media can change. The platforms we’re talking about now can disappear. There could be another platform. But people caring about the world, that’s not going to change. And so it may have been, you had to know someone who was a columnist for a newspaper or reporter for TV or someone reporting on the radio, and now you don’t need to know that. You can get on Instagram or TikTok, or Facebook, or X, or whatever it might be, or YouTube. But those platforms will change, and you have to be able to adapt and use what’s right for you, and you’ll know. People will know what’s the right medium for them to use.

Mijon Zulu:

What inspires you to continue to be a proponent for activism in the world?

Jay Ruderman:

I think activism is the most important thing that any of us can be involved in to change the world. I mean, we can be involved in material pursuits, and I have nothing against capitalism. I have nothing against making money or adding to society through building wealth, but at the end of the day, people that I know who’ve built wealth want, usually if they’re good people, and I think most people are good people, want to contribute to society. And they don’t always know how. And sometimes it’s as simple as, well, I’ll write a check to an organization. And that could be okay, but often there’s not that personal involvement, and this is a great book for someone who’s at that stage who might pick it up and say, “How do I personally get involved?” I mean, one of the reasons we ended up focusing on the entertainment world is because the stories that we consume shape our opinions. When I grew up, if you were gay, you hid it, or the stories that were portrayed in TV, in the movies, were hidden. And now it’s a non-issue, and that affects how we see others. Octavia Spencer, who wrote the foreword to the book, and his friend did a PSA for us where she said the first time she saw someone like herself on TV was when she watched The Jeffersons, which was a TV show in the seventies.

Mijon Zulu:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love The Jeffersons.

Jay Ruderman:

And we have to see ourselves, we have to see others, and I think that entertainment really impacts the way we see others.

Mijon Zulu:

Well, I have to say that I enjoyed reading the book. I’ve enjoyed working on this podcast, and it’s really awesome to have conversations around how people are taking it upon themselves to just affect change.

Jay Ruderman:

It’s not a long book. It’s 170 pages long. It’s very digestible, and it’s going to come out on audio and it’s on Kindle. I think that every single person that picks up this book is going to take something away from it that’s going to better their lives.

Mijon Zulu:

I’ve started reading it, and then I stopped again, and then I read the whole thing in one night, and it gave me a little bit of hope for our ability to change some of the things that are going on in this world.

Jay Ruderman:

Yeah, that’s nice. Thanks for saying that.

Mijon Zulu:

Thank you.

Jay Ruderman:

Because I think we can all get depressed and be like, “Oh, the world is so crappy right now, and there’s so much going on that’s awful.” There are some good things going on and there’s a lot of people trying to make things better.

Mijon Zulu:

And you can still be working on them right now, not in 10 years.

Jay Ruderman:

And don’t expect someone else to do it. You have to take some responsibility in our world to do something, or else, I think at the end of your life, you’re going to kick yourself and be like, “Why didn’t I do that?”

Mijon Zulu:

Thank you so much for the book. Thank you for the podcast.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you.

Mijon Zulu:

And it’s such a pleasure to work with you on this podcast. Thank you.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you so much for listening to All About Change. Today’s episode was produced by Tani Levitt and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or learn more about the show, you can visit our website allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We’d really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation. That’s all for now. I’m Jay Ruderman, and we’ll see you soon with another episode of All About Change.