TRANSCRIPTION

Jay Ruderman:

Welcome to All About Change. Now is a great time to check out my new book about activism, Find Your Fight. You can find Find Your Fight wherever you buy books and you can learn more about it at jayruderman.com.

Today my guest is Gene Baur hailed as, “The conscience of the food movement,” by Time Magazine. Gene walks the walk and talks the talk when it comes to food and animal rights. He’s the founder of Farm Sanctuary, a place of rescue, refuge and adoption for hundreds of farm animals each year. Farm Sanctuary shelters and enables visitors to connect with farm animals as emotional intelligent individuals. Gene has also led campaigns to change laws about animal treatment and has taken undercover photographs of farms, stockyards and slaughterhouses documenting deplorable conditions. His pictures and videos exposing factory farming cruelties have aired nationally and internationally educating millions about the plight of modern farm animals, and his rescue work inspired an international farm sanctuary movement. So Gene Bauer, thank you so much for being my guest on All About Change. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.

Gene Baur:

Yeah, so am I, Jay. Great to be here with you.

Jay Ruderman:

So let me jump right in and talk about the state of veganism. I have a story for you, when I was younger, traveling probably in the mid to early ’80s in Taiwan, I was with a friend and their family and we got into a cab and I wanted to go to a vegetarian restaurant, and I don’t even know if they were using the term vegan at that time in Taiwan, but it was all through translation. And when they asked the driver, the driver laughed and I’m like, “Why is he laughing?” And my friend’s mother said, “He thinks it’s funny that you would actually want to have a meal based on vegetables and not have meat when you have that option.” And now when you go around the world, you often have a plant-based option at almost any restaurant and it’s accepted and people understand that people are vegan and they have to have those options. And even in the supermarket you’re going to find many products. What do you think the state of veganism looks like today in not just in the United States, but in the world in general?

Gene Baur:

I think that there’s been a growing awareness about the many harms caused by our factory farming system and I think with that, people want to make choices that do not cause unnecessary harm. So I think that there has been growing awareness, which also has led to some behavior change and people wanting more access to plant foods and also businesses providing more plant-based foods, which is all very good.

At the same time, the animal agriculture industry is very entrenched and continues working to promote animal products. And in some cases this means including animal products and what would be plant-based foods normally, like there’s dairy ingredients in various bread products or bakery products, for example, that does not need to be there. And the fundamental problem is that we are overproducing animal foods. And the reason we’re overproducing them is because we have billions of dollars of government incentives in the US alone that are spent every year to incentivize the production of corn and soybeans, for example, as feed to incentivize the production of more cow’s milk, which then gets coagulated into cheese and then exported or given to kids in school lunch programs. So because we have this excess, there’s this strong marketing push coming with public funding to promote these animal products. And with that, the vegan food businesses are somewhat outgunned when it comes to the marketing muscle of agribusiness using institutional resources, getting into the schools, for example.

So I think that there’s a lot of awareness, which is great. People are eating more vegan foods, which is also very good. There’s a greater understanding of what it means to be vegan, but we’re up against a significantly entrenched industry that is not only about what we eat, it also is about how we live, and it’s closely tied to the pharmaceutical industries. Most of the drugs used in the US are fed to farm animals to make them grow faster. And farm animals are exempt from most humane laws at the state level. They’re exempt from the Federal Animal Welfare Act. Ironically, the only federal law that protects farm animals from cruelty is the Humane Slaughter Law, and that law exempts over 95% of the animals killed who are birds

Clip 1:

In any supermarket, the vast majority of the meat on sale is going to be coming from a factory farm. Animals are treated as objects rather than individuals in farms. Seeing them filmed, animals being treated in the most awful ways, people punching day old calves in the face because they’re frustrated that they wont feed from a bottle, kicking animals in the head, spraying [inaudible 00:05:14] up their noses, beating them with a pitchfork. I’ve been to about a thousand farms mostly in the UK and Europe, but also just a few in North America and Asia. I think to the average person it would be really shocking to go inside a factory farm.

Gene Baur:

The laws are inadequate, anything goes, and the industry continues to try to push for more profits, which means they cut corners in terms of animal welfare, but also in terms of the environment. And if human beings were rational animals, we would choose not to support this. But many of us grow up with habits and I think many people are afraid to change, they don’t believe they can change and as a result they often say, “Don’t tell me, I don’t want to know,” because they feel that there’s nothing they can do about it. But the good news is that each of us can make a difference by even making small changes on a daily basis and those changes over time add up and can create significant improvements in our food system.

Jay Ruderman:

I was thinking about what you talk about voting with your pocketbook and how you’ve had products like plant-based milk and meat and even this upstart that created a mayonnaise without eggs in it and how they were opposed, but ultimately they won and that people are seeking to use their dollars to keep themselves healthier, but also to separate themselves from an industry that has a great deal of cruelty. So I’ve always believed that culture really shifts. And legislation’s important, I don’t want to discount legislation whatsoever because it accomplishes a lot, but can you talk about that cultural shift and how important that is in changing industry?

Gene Baur:

I think culture is really important. Our belief systems sort of drive us to behave in certain ways, and then behaviors also influence our attitudes. So it’s behavior changes attitude, attitude changes behavior, and it’s all part of culture. So what we’re hoping to do at Farm Sanctuary is to normalize this idea that farm animals, like all animals have feelings and they deserve to be treated with respect and compassion. And if you accept that basic premise, it means factory farming ends, it probably means animal slaughter ends, but I think we are rational animals, but we’re also rationalizing animals. And I think human beings are fundamentally emotional and if we are doing something we don’t feel good about, we tend not to want to look at it, especially if we don’t believe we can do something to make a positive difference.

And so that’s where many people I think are stuck in this idea, in this belief that, and this is something that’s been pounded out to us through the mainstream media, that meat is good and you need it for protein or you need to drink cow’s milk to get calcium so you don’t get osteoporosis. But if you look at our country, we drink a lot of cow’s milk and we get a lot of osteoporosis, and we’re also eating too much protein and suffering from illnesses related to that, protein deficiency is much less of a problem than excess protein. So that’s part of our culture also of lacking, this worry that we’re not going to get enough of something is something we live within and we see commercials saying, “Oh, you need this for this benefit, or whatever it is.” And it’s kind of this whole culture of desire and need and want and in a sense greed, but it is not framed as greed, but it is because we’re taking way too many resources and causing immense harm. But it’s become normalized and most people don’t see that unfortunately.

But the good news is by making mindful choices that are aligned with our values and our interests by eating plants instead of animals, we don’t have to say, “Don’t tell me, I don’t want to know,” because we know what we’re eating and we feel good about it. We could save something like 70% on healthcare costs by shifting to a whole food plant-based diet. And we could create a much healthier environment where we had cleaner air, cleaner water, less of a threat of the climate crisis, more biodiversity by shifting how we eat collectively.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. I want to challenge you a little bit. If there are countries that consume dogs and there are countries that consume horses, and most Americans, if you talk about like, “Oh, I’m going to serve you a horse, they’re going to be repulsed.” Or a dog, “What do you mean? My dog, my best friend, you’re going to slaughter dogs and consume dogs?” And Americans are repulsed by that. But I think when it comes to pigs and cows and chickens and turkeys and so forth, we don’t look at them the same. And how do you create that shift where people will look at a chicken and be like, “I don’t want to eat a chicken.” Or, “I don’t want eat a cow,” how does that happen?

Gene Baur:

I think for different people, it happens in different ways. But here at Farm Sanctuary, we encourage people to come to the farm and meet a chicken and oftentimes that has a profound effect on people, or to meet a cow or to meet a pig and recognize that they’re not that different than cats and dogs. But the point you make is absolutely true that in some countries, people eat cats and dogs and in the United States were appalled by that. In other countries, they also eat horses, but in some countries they don’t eat cows. And we kill and eat cows in this country, and people from other countries are appalled by that. So which animals we consider to be our friends and which ones we consider to be our food are really quite arbitrary distinctions, and those are cultural distinctions.

And when there is this idea that a certain animal is here for us to be exploited and eaten in the case of turkeys or pigs in this country, for example, there’s also this sort of subconscious thing that happens where people I believe to feel better about what they’re doing tend to dismiss and denigrate the victims of their cruelty. So being called a pig for example, is not a compliment or being called a turkey is not a compliment. And these are ways that animals who have done nothing wrong, they’re innocent victims of this cruel system who most people are participating in by consuming their bodies are not only suffering physically, but they’re also being perceived in a certain way that is unfair. And that is unfortunately part of a cycle of abuse of power where those with power who mistreat others with less power lose their empathy and instead of trying to understand the consequences of their action, try to defend their action by denigrating those who they are harming.

Jay Ruderman:

And I think also people don’t understand how intelligent animals are. We look down and they’re like, “Oh, well, they’re just stupid animals and they’re bred to be eaten,” but they’re actually very intelligent animals.

Gene Baur:

Absolutely. Pigs are smarter than dogs, for example. And when you look into a pig’s eyes, it’s a lot like looking into a person’s eyes. And cows are very empathetic. I’ve seen people who have been going through a hard emotional time laying next to a cow, and the cow starts breathing empathetically with them. So there’s a sort of somatic connection sometimes that occurs. When you have those kinds of experiences you recognize that what we’re doing to cows and pigs and chickens and turkeys in the food system is not only horrible for other animals, it’s an affront to our humanity, and that’s not good for anybody. And I feel obviously terrible for what animals are going through, but also people who work in slaughterhouses have a very tough job as well, and that hurts people as well as animals. And we don’t have to participate in that. We can live well eating plants instead of animals. In fact, we can live better and create a healthier planet that way.

Jay Ruderman:

I grew up at a time when smoking was very popular, and yes, there’s been legislation raising the cost of cigarettes to be so expensive for most people, but there’s also this sense that it’s not cool to smoke. I mean, despite the harms that you get from smoking cigarettes, it’s also become uncool that if you’re now a smoker, instead of being the life of the party and lighting up within an apartment where you’re having a party, you’re now ostracized for going out in December on a porch or outside of the building. And we did get to a point where smoking cigarettes became uncool and the number of people smoking cigarettes dropped drastically. And the cigarette industry, the tobacco industry was a very powerful entrenched industry in Congress, and that changed. Do you see any analogy there where what happened with the consumption of tobacco could happen with the consumption of meat?

Gene Baur:

I would love to see a similar parallel where the idea of eating animal products is considered to be unacceptable in our society. It’s considered to be cruel, irresponsible, harming others because when we are eating in a certain way, we’re causing harm to the planet, which affects us all.

Jay Ruderman:

So I want to ask you about your work because you’re working on three parallel paths at the same time. You walk the walk in terms of saving animals at Farm Sanctuary and you can talk a little bit more about Farm Sanctuary and what actually is done at Farm Sanctuary, but then you also are practicing and welcoming others into a vegan lifestyle. And then finally, you’re an activist and you’re out there with the media and you’re working in government and you’re collaborating with celebrities and activists and writing books. How do you go through the effort to work on these projects at the same time and how do you manage them?

Gene Baur:

Well, at Farm Sanctuary, we do rescue and have sanctuaries for animals that have come out of the factory farming system. We educate people about how these animals were mistreated and how billions of animals are mistreated every year, and the impacts of animal agriculture on our planet and on ourselves. And we also advocate for systemic reforms so that instead of subsidizing and incentivizing this irresponsible food system, we can instead start investing in a food system that is better for animals, people, and the planet. And all these things are actually very closely connected. So the rescue work is very much about individual subjective lived experience. So we have rescued animals who get to live out their lives, and that presents opportunities for people to go out and hang out with a certain pig and give them a belly rub and get to know them. And that has profound personal impacts on people, and it’s a form of education.

Another form of education is just people educating others about the food system and about this idea that we can live well without killing and eating other animals. Because if there is a vegan in a group, for example, who is being friendly, being supportive, being kind and demonstrating you could live well this way, it has an effect on the community. And so much work, I think really does occur at the community level where people learn from each other, they join together with certain causes. For instance, if a factory farm is being built in your neighborhood, that oftentimes motivates people to get together and prevent that factory farm because they don’t want the pollution. So education is key and then advocacy, joining together in common cause to end factory farming cruelties to end the irresponsible behaviors of factory farms that hurt neighborhoods. And we need to create structural reforms. And this is our advocacy work, and it’s looking at the government programs and institutions that are continuing to enable this horrendous system that hurts most of us. And that’s more complicated, but it’s really important.

Jay Ruderman:

So what are some of the successes that you’ve had in terms of legislation and stopping some of the most cruel practices?

Gene Baur:

Well, when we started back in 1986 going to stockyards, we would routinely find animals too sick to walk who are just left to suffer and die in alleyways or on dead piles. And so our first campaign was the No Downers campaign to prevent animals too sick to walk from being dragged to stockyards and put on trucks and taken to slaughter and used for human food. After many years, we were able to achieve a ban on slaughtering down cows for human food. We’re still trying to prevent other animals that are too sick to walk, pigs, for example, from going into the food supply. And this has to do both with animal suffering and also with potential disease risks. One way we were able to ban down cows in the food supply was when there was clear evidence that downed animals were more likely to have mad cow disease. And so that was one success, but it came with both a health as well as a humane concern.

Another issue we’ve worked quite a lot on is to ban the inhumane confinement of animals in small cages and crates where they can’t even turn around. One of the more impactful laws that we help pass was in California to ban use of crates to put calves in where they can’t turn around or gestation crates for mother pigs who are used for breeding on these factory farms. And then also that law banned the confinement of chickens in cages for egg production where they were packed so tightly they couldn’t stretch their wings. So we were able to pass that law through a voter initiative where citizens came out to the polls, voted yes, banned those inhumane systems, and also banned the sale of products from those inhumane systems in California.

Now, agribusiness did not like that. So they went to court and they’ve been in court for over a decade. They even got to the US Supreme Court. Thankfully our side prevailed, and that law is still on the books, but it says an awful lot that agribusiness thought it was such a threat that these animals be given enough space to turn around and stretch their limbs, that they went to court for over a decade to try to fight that law. But anyway, that law holds. So that’s good news.

Right now we’re working to create systemic changes and to shift resources, again, the billions of dollars that currently enable factory farming, we want to start shifting that to invest in a different kind of community oriented plant-based food system. And one of our other successes wasn’t legislative, but had to do more with consumer behavior and encouraging vegan food at restaurants. And this started in the early 1990s when we got the farm here in Watkins Glen, New York. We asked local restaurants in Watkins Glen to have vegan food for our guests. Most of the restaurants complied and added a vegan item on their menu. And we thought, “What the heck? Let’s ask Burger King.” And the restaurant owner was very sympathetic, added a veggie burger. It ultimately went nationwide. And now you can go to Burger King and get the impossible Whopper at Burger King. So that is I think a big success making vegan food accessible.

Clip 2:

So for people who don’t eat these products, what kind of things are we talking about? Plant-based meat substitutes, what do they look, taste like? How popular are they?

Clip 3:

They’re immensely popular. I guess the most obvious plant-based product that replaces animal protein is dairy. And we’ve seen that grow hugely over the past five years. In fact, it’s now 12% of the global dairy market. But besides dairy, you have a lot of substitutes for plant-based meat. Every restaurant, retailer, fast food company is currently serving some kind of alternative meat replacement that is plant-based. So you have Beyond Burger, as you mentioned, you have Impossible Burgers. In some parts of the world you have Kentucky Fried Chicken with plant-based chicken nuggets, you even have plant-based fish. So this is definitely a phenomenon that’s not going away.

Gene Baur:

Having a veggie burger at Burger King is certainly better than having only beef burgers at Burger King. But a bigger question is, do we really want fast food restaurants? So we work on incremental reforms while also looking at bigger systemic changes we think are necessary.

Jay Ruderman:

And I think also there’s been a big improvement in the taste of vegan foods, and I think that that will get a lot more people interested in it because they’re like, “Well, this tastes pretty good.”

Gene Baur:

It’s so true. It’s so true. Yeah, I mean, the Impossible Whopper or Beyond Beef products are very similar to what people are used to eating when they eat cows. So I think those types of plant-based alternatives are improving and much more familiar to consumers who are used to eating animals.

Jay Ruderman:

Gene, I just wrote a book, it came out a while ago called Find Your Fight, which is all about being a more effective activist. And I know that you’ve written several books, and one of the things I talk about is that I think generally people are good, and generally people understand injustice. And one of the things that you have talked about is your evolution from sort of hitting people over the head and understanding what they’re doing wrong. Like people saying, “Well, I don’t eat veal,” but you automatically saying, “Well, you shouldn’t support the dairy industry.” And now you are more about talking to people’s hearts and minds and trying to win them over. So I wonder if you could talk about that transition, how you transitioned into accepting people and getting them where they are and trying to move them that way rather than being more militant in terms of how you approach them.

Gene Baur:

Well, I think one of Farm Sanctuary’s most important values is that we speak to people where they are on their own journeys. And to be able to do that, you actually have to empathize and understand where people are on their own journeys, why they might be afraid to make a change, for example. And in the case of farmers, especially as a younger activist, I would sometimes be very critical of farmers. And today what I would do is I would be critical of certain behaviors, but also try to understand that farmers are sort of stuck in the system and they oftentimes feel like they’re on a treadmill that they can’t get off of.

So instead of just criticizing and saying, “This is harmful, this is cruelty, this shouldn’t happen,” which I still believe, I want to try to work with the farmers to think, “Okay, what is the off-ramp?” How can this farmer, how can this slaughterhouse worker continue to make a living in a way that is less harmful and is ultimately healthy for them and for animals and for the earth? So it’s been an ongoing evolution, and I’ve just seen how that approach is actually more effective because you’re creating real change and you’re changing hearts, you’re changing minds, you’re changing behaviors, and over time, you then start changing communities and systems.

Jay Ruderman:

I think that’s so important. One of the things that stands out in your social media, which I really admire, is you maintaining connections with allies and you regularly post about people that you’ve worked with. And can you talk about partnerships and why they’re so important to you?

Gene Baur:

We are up against an immensely entrenched and powerful industry, and there is no one individual or one organization that can do this alone. We have many folks who are suffering because of factory farming, and we can work together for shared goals to end some of the suffering. And this is with people who are vegan and also with people who are not vegan. All of us are harmed by this system, and all of us have something to gain by changing our food system. So we look for the common ground and then we build from there. And the good news is there’s a lot of opportunity to find common ground.

Jay Ruderman:

Gene, I want to thank you so much for this discussion. I’ve learned so much from you. I think that you have a huge goal and you’ve dedicated your life to it, and you’ve made a difference. And there’s so much more to do, but I can see us heading in that direction. It’s the way that we have to head if we’re going to save ourselves, personally, if we’re going to save our fellow animals on this planet, if we’re going to save ourselves as a species. So you’re doing such important work. I really want to thank you for the conversation, and I’m sure the audience have learned so much from you. So thank you so much for being my guest on All About Change.

Gene Baur:

No, thank you, Jay. So great to be here with you and to talk about these issues. And I appreciate you elevating the conversation about these things so more and more people can start thinking about the impacts of our food choices.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you for being part of the All About Change community. We aim to spark ideas for personal activism, helping you find your pathway to action beyond awareness. So thank you for investing your time with us, learning and thinking about how just one person can make the choice to build a community and improve our world. I believe in the empower of informed people like you to drive real change, and I know that what we explore today will be a tool for you in that effort. All right, I’ll see you in two weeks for our next conversation, but just one small ask, please hit subscribe and leave us a comment below. It lets us know that you value this content and it supports our mission to widely share these perspectives. If you’re looking for more inspiration, check out this next video. I chose it for you and I know you’re going to enjoy it. I’m Jay Ruderman. Let’s continue working towards meaningful change together.

Today’s episode was produced by Tani Levitt and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or to learn more about the show, you can visit our website Allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation.