TRANSCRIPTION

Chelsea Miller:

One of the questions that we had asked the girls was, where was one of the first places that you learned how to love?

Jay Ruderman:

Hi, I am Jay Ruderman and welcome to All About Change, a podcast showcasing individuals who leverage the hardships that have been thrown at them to better other people’s lives.

Montage:

This is all wrong.

I say put mental health first because if you don’t-

This generation of America has already had enough.

I stand before you, not as an expert but as a concerned citizen.

Jay Ruderman:

Chelsea Miller was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. The neighborhood she grew up in was known as the Little Caribbean, a neighborhood filled with immigrant families like her own.

Chelsea Miller:

If you know anything about New York, yes, it is a melting pot, but it’s also one of the most segregated cities in the world because of wealth disparity. And so I spent a lot of time asking myself the questions of why does the world operate in the way that it does?

Jay Ruderman:

Those questions led Chelsea deeper into her activism. While studying at Columbia University, she and a college suite mate founded a program called We Believe. What started as a female leadership program for schools in Harlem evolved into a unique support group, a safe space for these girls to come together and process experiences they’ve been trying to handle alone, not always in the safest way.

Chelsea Miller:

If you grow up around a lot of trauma, if you grow up where you perhaps don’t receive that love from your parents or your family or siblings, then sometimes you go and find that somewhere else. And that somewhere else is not always a safe place.

Jay Ruderman:

But We believe was only the start for Chelsea. It gave her a taste of what it felt like to bring change. She went on to serve as an intern in the Obama White House and co-found Freedom March NYC.

Chelsea Miller:

We were like, we are ready to make it clear that this is what democracy looks like.

Jay Ruderman:

And I’m sure she’s only just getting started.

Chelsea Miller:

When things are good, right? When systems are working, when politicians are doing what they need to do, when everything seems to be fine, we are in a state of comfort. But what happens when those systems get disrupted?

Jay Ruderman:

Chelsea Miller, thank you so much for being my guest in All About Change. It’s a pleasure to meet you.

Chelsea Miller:

It’s a pleasure to meet you too.

Jay Ruderman:

Let me take you back to the beginning, growing up in Brooklyn. Can you tell us what impact your childhood had on you ultimately becoming an activist?

Chelsea Miller:

I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York and Flatbush in the ’90s and early 2000s, which if you know anything about Flatbush in the ’90s and early 2000s, it was called Little Caribbean and really just exemplified the story of so many immigrants and the influx of immigrants that came to Flatbush. And so I am a child of immigrants. My family came here from Jamaica and for a very long time I think that I struggled with my identity of what it meant to be first generation American and also trying to grapple with this idea of the American dream and what does that look like and why does it feel so far removed? And if you know anything about New York, yes, it is a melting pot, but it’s also one of the most segregated cities in the world because of wealth disparity. And so I spent a lot of time asking myself the questions of why does the world operate in the way that it does?

And so that really started my activism journey. And I also talk about a lot when I was around 12 years old, my mom turned the second floor of our two-story house into a group home for young girls. And so I grew up with foster sisters, and having that experience of growing up in a home where you see other kids come in who have so many different experiences than you and the trauma of navigating systems within our society and how do you reconcile with that? And so I think that definitely was the foundation of a lot of the work that I do now.

Jay Ruderman:

I’ve heard you talk about your mom and how she came to the country as an immigrant and sleeping at McDonald’s and doing odd jobs and just doing whatever she had to support her family. And yet also bringing in, as you said, foster sisters who opened up because of her. So how much of an impact did your mom have on shaping your outlook on life?

Chelsea Miller:

Oh my gosh. To this day she still has such a huge impact on how I just see myself, but then also how I understand my responsibility. I always say that it’s one thing to know who you are, it’s another thing to know who you are as it relates to this world and our responsibility in it. And I’ve just always felt a heavy sense of duty because of so many challenges that my mom experienced and the people who opened the doors for her. The people who gave her somewhere to sleep, the people who gave her the opportunity to work at least somewhere while she was here. And I think that even as a little girl, I always said that I want to be the person when I grow up that my mom needed.

Jay Ruderman:

That’s so beautiful. And you talked also about growing up in a predominantly Black neighborhood, but being sent to a predominantly white school. And what impact did that have on you about what you saw about the disparities that you experienced as a child?

Chelsea Miller:

It was difficult. I always questioned why it was that my friends, why a lot of my white classmates, their parents could just pick them up after school or could go on the field trips, attend the parent teacher meetings. And for me, that wasn’t necessarily my reality. My sisters would pick me up from school and if they couldn’t pick me up, then would take the bus home. And I think that because of that, I spent a lot of time trying to connect it to a lot of larger conversations. Because then I would look around and see that, oh, it’s not only me that has to take the bus home an hour away. It was mostly all the Black students who were taking the bus back almost an hour into a different part of the city.

And so a lot of just questions in my neighborhood looks so different from where I went to school. There were parks where I went to school, there were houses. All these different things versus I go back home and it’s apartment buildings and there’s not really that many parks in the area. And the schools there are underfunded. That’s not to say that my community wasn’t vibrant, because it was vibrant in so many different ways. What I think it boiled down to is that my community did not have the resources. And I think that that was the most striking part.

Jay Ruderman:

And do you think that that was the birth of your activism, your interest in civil rights? I know you’ve been described by your family as trouble. Does that all tie in together? “I’m seeing disparity and I want to do something about it.”

Chelsea Miller:

Yeah, my family always thought that I was a troublemaker. And not even a troublemaker as it relates to school, ’cause I was always great in school, but just if there was some type of mischievous plan that was happening where we were trying to annoy my older sisters, I would be the mastermind behind it. And I think that in that way I just have always been the person that questioned a lot of things. And then in that also trying to figure out ways around it.

Jay Ruderman:

That’s very powerful. So you went to Columbia and then while at Columbia you started an organization called We Believe. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because it sounds like you had great success.

Chelsea Miller:

We Believe came about when I was at Columbia and I co-founded it with a suite mate of mine who became really good friends with Aquia [inaudible 00:08:17]. And we realized that we don’t see a lot of people who look like us where we’re from in these spaces. And we have a responsibility to make sure that we pour into the next generation of young women and girls who are coming behind us, so they know that a space like Columbia is their space too. A university like Columbia, they have every right to be there and to show up and to be present. And so we started with working with middle schools in Harlem to develop leadership programming for young girls. And I remember we did it for a semester and then so many other college students started messaging us and saying, “What is it that you guys are doing? How can we get involved?”

And so we’re like, “Okay, well let’s launch chapters. Let’s train other young women on their campuses to be able to do these programs in schools near their campus universities.” And in doing that, we were at over 20 universities by the time I graduated. At one point, one of our conferences, there was about 500 women and girls and college students that had gone through the conference weekend. We had galas, we were honoring Toronto burg. We were doing so much incredible work. I think that one of the biggest things that I took away from that is that if you have the will and if you are able to, there’s so much that you can create. And also not allowing the budgets to stop you from doing things. ‘Cause we were savvy. We figured it out.

Jay Ruderman:

One of the most powerful things that I heard you say was that in a very short period of time that your organization was able to get young girls to really open up about trauma in a way that they were not able to open up to their social workers. You even made a statement that the social workers, their jaws dropped. They couldn’t believe that you and your organization had this impact. What do you attribute that to?

Chelsea Miller:

One of the questions that we had asked the girls was, “Where was one of the first places that you learned how to love?” And if you grow up around a lot of trauma, if you grow up where you perhaps don’t receive that love from your parents or your family or siblings, then sometimes you go and find that somewhere else. And that somewhere else is not always a safe place. And so, so many young girls who are in communities where there is so much trauma and hurt present, hurt people hurt people. And so we ask that question as a starting point to a larger discussion about relationships and self-esteem and love. And before you know it, there about I would say three out of four of the girls eventually came forward sharing that they had been survivors of sexual abuse in some way, shape or form. Whether that was they were boyfriend when they were 12. And then someone else saying, “That happened to me,” to stories of just having just so many different experiences in school.

And the teachers looked at us and they were like, “Well…” Because we had opened a can of worms that they were not even prepared to deal with. And after that session, we had to have a touch base with the educators and the teachers and the school guidance counselors and everyone that was present and we had to unpack it. And what was the support that was going to be in place after today for all of the things that were shared? And that’s why when we did the programs, we made sure we brought educators into the space because we’re not in the school classroom all the time, but the teachers are. And so it also helps when students feel like there’s someone who is at my school who knows my story. And so that’s also important too, to building that relationship between adults and students.

I think that there’s a lot for us to learn as adults about how we talk to kids about the spaces that we create for them, where they can feel seen and heard. And you’d be surprised all of the things that they have to say if we just give them the space to say it.

Jay Ruderman:

Yeah. I have to tell you a little story about how you inspired me in preparation for this interview. You’ve said time and again, we have to believe that we are enough, that you are enough. And I have a son who’s going through a hard time right now, and after I heard you say that, I texted him and I’m like, “You are enough. I’m proud of you. I love you.” And that really resonated with me. ‘Cause I don’t think we tell ourselves that enough, that we are enough. There’s all these expectations that we should be doing more or we should be living up to some standard that society sets for us. So thank you for that.

Chelsea Miller:

Absolutely. And that reminds me of something that I said a few weeks ago as well where I said, when we believe that, we also see ourselves as worthy of the world that we’re trying to create. We spend so much time trying to imagine a better world or trying to figure out how we can get there and all these things, but it’s like, okay, well when this world is created, do you see yourself there? And what version of yourself is going to exist there? Is it the best version of you? Do you see yourself as worthy of that best version? How do we get there?

Jay Ruderman:

That’s awesome. Tell us a little bit about your time in the Obama White House. I understand that you were the youngest intern at the time and you were working on domestic policy. What was that like and how did it inform what you do today?

Chelsea Miller:

I was one of the youngest, I don’t think I can take credit for being the youngest. But what I will say is that it was one of the most transformative experiences of my life. It was during the last months of the administration and it was also during the 2016 elections. And so there was a lot going on at that time that really had the nation divided and searching for hope.

Soundbite:

Right now, a historic moment. We can now project the winner of the presidential race, CNN projects Donald Trump wins the presidency. The business tycoon [inaudible 00:14:27]

Chelsea Miller:

I’ll never forget it was after the election results that came out and I went back to work and we all ended up on a call with Obama. And one of the things that he said was, the work still continues and we have a responsibility to the people, we have a responsibility to ourselves. And in this moment, we get to shape history. And the grace and the fortitude of how we pass on this administration, how we pass on this government, how we choose to leave that legacy.

Soundbite:

Regardless of which side you were on in the election, regardless of whether your candidate won or lost, the sun would come up in the morning. And that is one bit of prognosticating that actually came true.

Chelsea Miller:

And a lot of my time at the White House was then spent working with a lot of organizations, bringing folks who perhaps never would experience being able to go to the White House, into those White House doors. And being a part of the community aspect of the Obama legacy was incredible.

Soundbite:

I’m tired of my Black men and my Black women being shot. Being killed by the NYPD. I’m tired of it. I have three Black men in my home, I am tired. I am tired.

Jay Ruderman:

So Chelsea, let me take you to the days following the murder of George Floyd.

Soundbite:

Hands up, don’t shoot! Hands up, don’t shoot! Hands up, don’t shoot! We are a powerful people. And you know [inaudible 00:16:02] this is our time.

Jay Ruderman:

Tell me about that moment and what made you step out to the street in May of 2020.

Chelsea Miller:

So I think that there was a lot going through my head at the time. I was wrestling with the fact that we were in the middle of a global pandemic. And then I also think the reality that when I was a teenager, I remember Trayvon Martin completely shifting my universe and my understanding of what it meant to just be a young Black person in America. And when I saw the death of George Floyd, it felt like a shock to the system. And not a shock because it’s surprising, we know that this country has been lynching Black bodies since its inception. But I think that to see it on your phone at such a vulnerable time globally and understand that even in a global pandemic, we still are not safe. And I think that was by far one of the most frustrating and devastating realizations. And I went outside because I was tired of the narrative that was being developed, that rioters and hoodlums and thugs were outside taking to the streets, when we all have a right to exercise our first amendment. We all have a right to be outside.

And there was such an emphasis on property and nobody was talking about why there were protests and disruption happening in the first place. And if we center that conversation, then we can actually push towards change. But if we don’t, then we fall into the same cycles that we have seen over and over again. And because we were in a pandemic where so many people were afraid to take to the streets because of health reasons, I felt the responsibility to take to the streets anyways and show that we would not be silent, especially at a time like this. And that this is the responsibility of our generation, the duty of our generation, to make sure that we do not allow these instances and these moments and these pivotal moments in our history to go without being reckoned with.

And so that is why I went outside and I did not expect any of it. The first night I went outside, there was a lot of disorder. And the only reason why I went outside was because I wanted to protest. And there were agitators in the crowd and there was just a lot of confusion happening. And for me, I like some type of strategy. I’m a strategist. If there’s not a plan, I’ll help come up with it. So a friend of mine saw me outside the day before and was like, “Was there anything happening today? I’d love to come outside with you.” And I said, “There’s no organizing that’s happening. And so if there’s anything that we’re going to do, we probably have to do it ourselves.” And so we posted the flyer at 12:00 PM and by 8:00 PM that night on May 31st had organized one of the largest nonviolent protests in New York.

Jay Ruderman:

And so was this the founding of Freedom march NYC?

Chelsea Miller:

Yeah, it was the founding of Freedom March NYC. And it’s funny because the name of the actual march that day was Freedom March NYC, and that is how we got our name Freedom March NYC, was because that was the name of the first march that we ever did. And because it was an organized protest group, so many people were then asking, “When is the next one? What are we doing tomorrow? Can you guys talk about the state of what’s happening on the ground?” Because also, keep in mind, this was during the time where a lot of media was not present as well. So there were independent journalists who were contracted by media outlets, but a lot of media was afraid to send their people out because it could be a liability. If we sent you in the middle of a pandemic, you get sick, you get injured.

There was so much what ifs at the time in the world that there were even media outlets reaching out to us like, “Can you send us videos? ‘Cause we don’t have anyone that can capture the content of what’s happening in real time.” So there was the one element of people were trying to figure out who is trusted leadership on the ground, who can we go to if we want to come outside tonight to make sure that we get home safely? And that you care about making sure we get home safely? And on the other front, there were folks who were like, “We need someone who is trusted to tell us what is happening and can relay that information to the world.” And so we felt the weight of all of those things happening at the same time, and that’s why Freedom March became what it became, because of that responsibility to community.

Jay Ruderman:

So I just want to take you back to the first protest. And from what I understand, you and your co-founder went to Washington Square, there were flyers, you stood on a bench. Tell me what you were seeing, feeling, hearing.

Chelsea Miller:

I was nervous, but I think I also just had so much conviction that it outweighed the nerves. We were fired up. And also keeping in mind, this was not a presidency that was aligned with what we were saying, with what we believed. Literally folks were telling us not to come outside because the KKK was coming into New York. The president at the time was saying that he’s going to send the National Guard into New York because of everything that’s going on. There were choppers in the air. And so for us, when we came out, we were like, we are ready to make it clear that this is what democracy looks like. This is what young people who are fighting for our rights, our freedom, for our communities, this is what that looks like. And so when we came out, we were like, okay, well this isn’t my first time organizing a protest, but this is my first time organizing a protest in the midst of a global pandemic with a hostile president, with a hostile local government, and with police choppers in there. This is a lot happening.

But we definitely made sure that we relied on our values of we are just here to center the message. That is what we said. We were like, “We are here to center message. We will not engage with the police. We will not engage with anything that is going to distract from this message, because what’s happening in Minneapolis, the George Floyd family, the world needs to know that we are standing with them.” And there was this really critical moment on the first night. We were walking from Washington Square Park to go to One Police Plaza, because there were also some protesters that had been arrested the days before. There were videos of police vans that were mowing into protestors in New York. So there was a lot happening. And so our strategy was we are going to march from Washington Square Park to One Police Plaza, center the message of this movement, and demand that they release these protesters.

And so as we were marching, there was a point where at first it was about a dozen people and then people saw us and heard what we were saying and started to gather. And before you know it, we start walking, we start chanting, we start doing all of these things, and there are hundreds of people. And then there gets to a point as we are halfway to One Police Plaza in the middle of the street where there is a group that is about to collide with us. And so the protest was going to merge, and this group were not looking to center her any message. They were going towards the stores, they were ready for a good time. And so it was intense. Because as an organizer, this is one of your worst nightmares for your group to now be merged with another group.

And so we were like, “What are we going to do? Are we going to lose the crowd? Should we go with them? Should we figure out?” And we’re like, no, we’re going to go in the direction that we were going. And so there was a point where we merged with that group and then separated. And by the time we looked back, there were hundreds more people that had come to join Freedom March NYC and ,arch with us to One Police Plaza. And so that was one of the most defining points in my activism. Because if we had chosen to go with them, there would be no Freedom March NYC today.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. I remember I was in Boston at the time, massive peaceful protests about the death of George Floyd. But then there’s always stragglers on and there was some destruction of property, and as you said, a lot of people focused on the destruction of property and not the thousands and thousands of people that were protesting racial injustice and the murder of an innocent person. How do you deal with that? That there’s two different ways that society is looking at what’s going on.

Chelsea Miller:

We live in a capitalist society, and so there is no surprise that when property is destroyed, that is when people start to care or start to talk about it or it becomes the state of emergency. But Black folks have lived in a state of emergency in this country for hundreds of years. And so to me, it is not a question of whether or not the narrative will focus on what it focuses on. Because we know that America was built off of this idea of property. Black folks at one point were property. And so to me, I think it boils down to when we know the strategies and the tools of the oppressor, when we know the ways in which we are convinced of our own history, we have a responsibility to do the convincing. We have a responsibility to center the message. We have a responsibility to ensure that future generations know what happened. And there’s enough documentation of it, there’s enough fight, there’s enough energy, there’s enough everything.

I think about the impact of history and the reason as to why I am as convicted of who I am and what I need to do is because of the understanding of my family history. But also I remember being in school and learning about Martin Luther King. I remember being in school and learning about Freedom Summer, learning about Emmett Till, learning about the civil rights movement. And I do not take it lightly when I say that we stand on the shoulders of giants. That’s why when folks are like, “I’m not voting because I don’t believe in the system,” and I think about all of the activists who have given their lives for that, it’s not even a question. That’s the bare minimum that we can do. No one is saying that that’s going to lead to freedom and crossing the line of all of the things that we need to get done in this generation, but it’s the least we can do. And so I think that for me, when you know your history, you have so much authority of how you can build a future.

Jay Ruderman:

I want to talk a little bit about allyship. You’ve talked about the difference between standing in solidarity and standing as a comrade. Can you talk about the distinction and what you mean by that?

Chelsea Miller:

Yeah. When things are good, when systems are working, when politicians are doing what they need to do, when everything seems to be fine, we are in a state of comfort. But what happens when those systems get disrupted? To me, the simple answer is community. Community happens. And that is fundamentally how we should see the world, based on community. Because if not for the comrades who stood with us, we would’ve been arrested so many times. If not for the comrades that stood with us, we would’ve been brutalized so many times. If not for the allies and some of our white comrades who literally walked in front of protesters, use their bodies as human shields to protect us from state sanctioned violence and police brutality. If not for the folks who were organizing bail bonds to get organizers out of jail. If not for the folks who were riding their bikes to make sure that protesters were safe. If not for them, the strength of this movement would not be what it is to this day. Because 2020 lives on and it continues, and the work doesn’t stop. It maybe takes new forms, but it doesn’t stop.

And so I think about that. I think about the white folks who gave their lives to this movement, and not even just in 2020, but even if you look back into the civil rights movement. We talk about Freedom Summer in Mississippi Burning, we talk about Andrew [inaudible 00:28:55], and when we talk about the ways in which they organized and they believed in something greater than themselves. And I think that if there was more of that, we would be so much further. But as we know, this country is designed to do exactly what it’s doing. And so the divisiveness that we are seeing is not new. In politics and the two party system and the ways that there’s just either ors that we’re seeing is not new. But this work doesn’t stop and I push us in the direction of solidarity and comradeship. Instead of just simply, I’m on the sidelines, how are you participating?

Jay Ruderman:

What about sustainability, sustaining momentum? How do you do that personally and how do you do that for the movement?

Chelsea Miller:

Activists are not supposed to live long, according to the history books. And I denounce that. I believe that we have a right to live, we have a right to see the world that we are envisioning, that we are worthy of that world. I believe that we have a right to joy. I believe we have a right to freedom in all of the forms in which that looks like. Whether that be financial freedom, social freedoms, political freedoms.

And so for me, when I think about sustainability, I think about being able to live my wildest dreams. Not just the wildest dreams of my ancestors, but my wildest dreams as well. I believe in using all of the parts of yourself and showing up in the world. And so whether that is wanting to launch an initiative or wanting to educate young people or being on the front lines or having talks globally about social change or taking a vacation, whatever that looks like, I think it’s so important to rest, to practice spending time with family and friends and the things that make you happy and traveling and seeing the world and just all of these different things.

And so I think sustainability from an activism standpoint looks like taking care of yourself. Because if you are not here, then the work doesn’t happen. And we need to start talking about what it looks like to get to that point without assuming that burnout is a requirement and martyrdom is a requirement to how we create change in this world.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. When you speak, you cover a lot of issues. You talk about mental health advocacy, environmental racism, and many other issues. Why is it important to you to have such a breadth of topics in your activism?

Chelsea Miller:

Because the game oftentimes changes, but it is the same people who are playing it. And for me as an activist, it is my responsibility to always know who is playing the game. And so when we think about racial justice, it is connected to every single aspect of how we have created and formed American society and beyond. And so you can’t talk about climate change without talking about who’s going to be the most impacted. You can’t talk about women’s rights without talking about who was disproportionately impacted: Black and brown communities. You can’t talk about leadership without talking about who oftentimes is left out of these boardrooms and these opportunities.

And so for me, because I grew up operating at so many different intersections, my identity is intersectionality. I have had no choice but to see the ways that these things connect, and in doing so use that to bring the worlds together. And so I’ve made it my life’s mission that there is no room that is too inaccessible, that I will not find my way into and center the message of what needs to be said and make sure that we hold people in power accountable.

Jay Ruderman:

So do you feel that when you talk about intersectionality and you’re dealing with groups that focus on, say, reproductive justice or climate change, that they understand the importance of intersectionality?

Chelsea Miller:

What I found is that a lot of folks are ignorant of how it connects. And I’m talking about specifically if we’re talking about folks who are interested in women’s rights and consider themselves activists as it relates to the women’s rights space, but may not necessarily feel like they understand fully racial justice issues. They may invite someone like me to come in and provide that understanding, that knowledge. And so I would say that it comes from not necessarily understanding, but what I have found in these spaces is that there is interest in trying to figure out how we get there.

Not as much interest as there should be, but I also think that there’s something to be said when you have proven and you have a proven track record of how you are able to organize people. Sometimes we do have to go into the spaces where folks don’t think like us if we are going to build that solidarity and that comradeship and figure out ways to get our generation where we need to be. Because everyone’s operating in silos, but all the issues are connected.

Jay Ruderman:

Chelsea Miller, I want to thank you again for being my guest on All About Change. You have an important voice and I wish you to go from strength to strength. Thank you so much.

Chelsea Miller:

Thank you. Thank you for the platform.

Jay Ruderman:

Chelsea’s story of her activism stretches all the way back to her childhood roots in Flatbush, Brooklyn. I’ll be following her and I’m excited to see where she goes next.

That’s it for today’s episode. Join us two weeks from today as I sit down with animal rights activists, Chrissy Beckles, founder of the Sato Project for a topic that’s close to my heart. Today’s episode was produced by Kim Huang, with story editing by Yochai Maital and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or learn more about the show, you can visit our website allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word. Tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We would really appreciate it.

All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation. Special thanks to our production team at Pod People, David Zwick, Grace Pina, Morgane Fouse, Bryan Rivers and Aimee Machado. That’s all for now. I’m Jay Ruderman and we’ll see you next time on All About Change.