TRANSCRIPTION

Jay Ruderman:

Welcome to All About Change. So folks, today we’re going to talk about an issue that’s sweeping the country, the banning of books, and we have an expert, a librarian who has become an activist, Amanda Jones. Amanda, welcome to All About Change.

Amanda Jones:

Hi, it’s an honor to be here with you today.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you. So let me just jump in and get your take on what you believe the purpose of a library as a community institution is.

Amanda Jones:

All right, so a school library, though the purpose for a school library would be to provide all of our students with access to resources for research, but also free independent reading as well as for providing everyone on faculty and staff resources to help teach their content standards and to help shape little minds into becoming more empathetic human beings and more knowledgeable about the world around them. Librarians are experts at connecting books to the right students or patrons. We are experts at helping them find those books. We’re experts at helping them navigate resources and research and we can provide them with valid resources that aren’t just a random Google search that they perform on the internet. We’re the experts to help them, but also if we’re speaking about a school library, school libraries, we provide a safe place for the kids to enjoy and hang out before school recess. The Human Rights Coalition just recently put out a report last year that nine out of 10 kids feel safe in school libraries.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, you’re talking to someone who loves libraries and grew up in libraries, so I get it. But what are some of the misconceptions that you think people have about the way content is curated for libraries, particularly school libraries?

Amanda Jones:

So there are a lot of misconceptions right now. If we’re talking school libraries, school librarians, we all have collection development policies, and in those collection development policies, it guides us on what type of materials to acquire for the library. So for instance, I’m a school librarian at a fifth and sixth grade school. My students are 9, 10, and 11 approximately. So I only have materials that are professionally reviewed for students in my age range. So you’re not going to find a high school level book, a book that is targeted for 17, 16, 18 year olds in a 9, 10, 11, 12 library in a school. Same for the public library, except for a public library is for birth to death, it’s for everyone in the community, but public libraries also have different sections. You have your children’s, generally your children area, your teen, young adult section and adult section. And the librarians, the professional librarians at those, also file their collection development policies and place the materials in the appropriate section.

Jay Ruderman:

Let’s talk about you a little bit. My understanding is that you live in the same town in which you grew up.

Amanda Jones:

So yes, I live in the same small two-red-light town that I have pretty much my entire life. And I was a reader. My mom is a former kindergarten teacher, she’s retired and she would read to me every week. She’s also a Sunday school teacher, so she would read to me Bible stories as well. And she took us to the library every week and she just instilled that love of reading and knowledge into me and both of my sisters. And as I got older, I wanted to take after her and become an educator and do the same thing.

Jay Ruderman:

Okay. So let’s talk about the moment that you became famous. Talk about what happened, why you decided to speak up and fight back against book bans in your community in a public way.

Amanda Jones:

I’ve always been a library lover and I have had a library card since I was five years old in our public library. And although I am a school librarian, I made headlines for speaking out at a public library board meeting. So I went as a resident, not as an employee because it had nothing to do with where I work. I went as a resident of my community to speak at the public library because our libraries were being targeted by an outside extremist group, people that did not live and work in our parish. And I felt it was important to speak out. And part of the reasoning for that is because in 2020 I was named the Louisiana School Librarian of the Year, and in 2021 I was named the National Librarian of the Year by School Library Journal. And I think that when you are given a platform and a position and awards and accolades like that, you should use them for good.

And so I wanted to use my expertise as a librarian, but go and speak as a resident who was concerned about what I was seeing happening in our local public library. There’s an outside extremist group that I don’t like to name on air to give them airspace, but they have been very significant in costing a neighboring parish, Lafayette Parish, funding, causing chaos. I was watching from my area, watching their library ward be replaced with extremists from rational levelheaded people banning displays, banning books, relocating books. And when I saw a member of that dark money nonprofit organization outside extremist group posting about our library and our local community Facebook page saying everyone needed to get to the library board meeting, I looked at the library board agenda and all that the agenda said was content and signage. But it was in July and it came right after Pride month, so I figured based on my expertise in following censorship attempts across the United States over the past few years and after following Lafayette, that there was going to be an attempt.

Jay Ruderman:

So for the listeners and for my own edification, because when you hear about book banning, you think of going back to the time of the Nazis and burning books and that books are dangerous. To me, education and the ability to access different viewpoints seems to be what education is about. But maybe you could just set the setting that you were in. What are people afraid of?

Amanda Jones:

Well, there are lies being pushed in our community and communities all across the United States that there are sexually explicit materials or pornography, if you may, if you will, in children’s sections of libraries. And it’s just not true. There are no sexually explicit materials in children’s sections of libraries or in school libraries, what people are calling pornography and sexually explicit are any topics that have to do with the LGBTQIA+ community and anything having to do with sexual health. So for instance, a book that was challenged in our parish that someone said they wanted banned and removed from our library is a book called Pride Puppy, and it’s a book written for little children about a puppy in a pride parade. And there’s nothing remotely sexual in that book, but they wanted it removed because it had the word pride and the puppy went to an LGBTQIA+ themed parade. So it’s that kind of nonsense. But you’ll see people, politicians pick up the mantra of sexually explicit in the library and they run with it and people share false information online and it just snowballs until eventually everyone in the town is like the town in Beauty and the Beast and everyone, it’s time to go attack the castle and kill the beast.

Jay Ruderman:

So it sounds like a lot of this is anti-gay in nature.

Amanda Jones:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Jay Ruderman:

Why did you feel it was important that these books be available in the library?

Amanda Jones:

Libraries are for everyone and everyone in the community pays taxes, including the families with two moms and two dads or whatever. Everyone, every member in our community deserves to see themselves and their families reflected in the books on the shelves. It’s very important to me because as an educator, a 24-year educator, unfortunately I have seen a lot of my students once they graduate, move out of our area because they don’t want to be ostracized and hated upon for being a member of the LGBTQ community. But I’ve also had a lot of students that have taken their own lives because of it, because they’re othered and hated on. I just refuse to be a party to that. I think if you have a position of power and privilege like I do, you should speak out about it because if you don’t, your silence is compliance and I refuse to be complicit in the othering or removing or ostracizing any members of our society.

Jay Ruderman:

So I’ve heard you say that people should see themselves in literature, but it sounds like you’re facing an opposition that believes that the community is heterogeneous and everyone is the same, and you’re trying to influence people to become different than they are and that’s not the reality that you’re living in.

Amanda Jones:

No. The thing about libraries is that librarians provide resources, but you don’t have to check those resources out. If you’re a parent and you don’t want your child to look or check those books out, then don’t, but you don’t have a right to tell other people that they can’t. And that’s what we’re seeing. We’re seeing people that they don’t want to accept other people are different from them in our community, and it’s not just the gay community. I’ll say we’re seeing Black and Asian authors and indigenous authors and characters being challenged and banned across the United States as well, and nobody has the right to tell anyone else what they can and cannot read. But just because something’s on the shelf, it’s not a lesson anyone’s teaching, we’re not teaching any of these books. We’re just providing access to information. And all libraries have policies for unaccompanied minors, usually around the age of 12 and 13. So if a parent doesn’t want their kid to get it, don’t get it. Go with your child to the library. It’s not a daycare.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. So Amanda, what happened to you personally after you spoke out at that meeting?

Amanda Jones:

So four days after the meeting, I woke up to a targeted hate campaign against me by two different men. One man posted a meme that had my picture that said I advocate the teaching of anal sex to eleven-year-olds, that had nothing to do with my speech whatsoever that I gave at the library. He was a man, a local man in my community. And then the outside, a man from the outside extremist group, posted a picture of me with what looks like a target around my face and insinuated that I was giving pornography and erotica to six-year-olds, which again, had nothing to do with my speech at the public library, I don’t even have six-year-olds at my school, but they brought my school into it. They started name-calling, people in the comments were calling me a pedophile groomer saying I needed to be slapped and purged and taken out and if they saw me in the street, I’d get what was coming to me.

And these are not just strangers. Some were strangers, but some were people I’ve grown up with and known my entire life. It was heartbreaking. I mean, I’m an award-winning educator, not to toot my own horn, but I have won tons of awards. I have earned over a hundred thousand dollars for grants for my school. I’ve had near perfect observations for all of my career, so to wake up to see this was absolutely devastating, and to see it from people I know and love was even worse. And I’ll be clear, these attacks are still happening to me. It’s been two years, it’s still happening, I’ve just grown more accustomed to it, sadly. I mean, they’ve ruined my reputation in my community. I do not go out in my community unless I absolutely have to. I don’t go to restaurants in my community, I go outside of my community, but I have to because I live there.

My child attends the high school, so she’s in the band, she has events. So when she plays, I have to go. I mean, I don’t have to, but I love her so I do. And I have to face people that give me dirty looks and call me names. And I also still show up at every single library board of control meeting to speak because they’re not going to silence me. But when I do, I have to face people that record me, people that take pictures of me, people that wear T-shirts to mock me. They tell me I need to read the Bible. I was told at the legislature when I went to go speak on it, that God was going to put a millstone around my neck and drown me, all for the crime of reading a speech about censorship at the public library.

Jay Ruderman:

I’m so sorry for that. Did you ever go to the authorities about the threats that you were receiving?

Amanda Jones:

Yes. I lodged two formal complaints with the sheriff’s department and they basically said, “Oh, that’s a civil matter. We can’t do anything about it.” I received a very explicit death threat that I also went again for the third time to the sheriff’s department and they said, “Oh, we can’t trace it. We’ve tried and we can’t,” even though I handed them, I traced it myself and handed them all the information they needed. So no, the sheriff’s department was not very helpful. And I don’t know if it’s because their hands are tied or what. It is very disheartening to not get any help from authorities. And so I ended up filing a lawsuit in civil court and it’s still ongoing. The court case was dismissed by a local elected judge in my community who said, “It’s their opinion,” even though I can provide all four facets of defamation, it’s their opinion that I teach children how to perform sex acts and give children pornography and erotica, even though it’s provably false.

It was sent to Louisiana First Circuit Court of Appeals. Two judges ruled that they couldn’t even listen to it because of a technicality. And one judge ruled that, “Yes, we can and we need to,” but because it was two to one, I am now appealing to Louisiana Supreme Court. So I’m still fighting for the right to have a trial to bring these men in front of a jury of my peers. That’s what I’m fighting for right now. And it’s all technical legal jargon right now, but all I’m asking for, I’m not asking for a lot, I’m asking for a dollar and an apology. That’s all I want.

 

Jay Ruderman:

So Amanda, at what point did you turn from being a librarian who was being attacked and dealing with the emotional aspect of that to becoming an activist, to standing up and saying, “Okay, I’m not going to take this. I’m going to stand up and I’m going to fight”?

Amanda Jones:

It only took me about a week to decide. I am very stubborn, but my parents always raised me and I teach my students that if they’re being bullied or if they see injustice, they need to speak out. So I’m doing what I was raised to do. I’m doing what I teach our students to do. Speak out if something’s bothering you, you’re being harassed or bullied. I didn’t set out to become an activist, but they tried to silence me. And so I figured I was going to do the exact opposite of what these people who are trying to ruin my life want me to do. They want me to be silent, so I’m going to do the opposite. So maybe I went a little overkill with the opposite. I founded the Livingston Parish Library Alliance to help my local community, our local library. I joined with friends and we founded the Louisiana Citizens Against Censorship to help libraries all across Louisiana to stop anti-library legislation. And now I have a book out. I wrote a book about it, which is my ode to libraries and tells my story, but also shows the roadmap of why this is happening because it’s important for people to know why this is happening not just in Louisiana, but all across the United States, and also what people that are not librarians can do in their communities to help educators and librarians.

Jay Ruderman:

So how do you deal with mental health issues while this is going on? Does your activism help you in terms of your mental health?

Amanda Jones:

Yes, it helps me in that. It gives me something positive I can do that I’m not just sitting at home going, “Oh, woe is me.” There’s actionable items that I can take and I can do. But I’ve been very honest with people about how I had to take medication for a while, anxiety medication. I have been in intensive therapy for almost two years, but I have a very, very strong support system. I have a very supportive family. My parents live next door to me, my sister lives behind me, a supportive husband and child, and I have the power of school librarians and librarians across the United States that have my back. And I have the support of all my former students that are in their twenties and thirties who contact me to tell me that.

Jay Ruderman:

That’s great. And you’re blessed to have such a strong family and friends. Has your activism, I know we’ve talked about in your community that people have turned against you, has your activism brought some people in the community towards you?

Amanda Jones:

Yes. I lost a lot of friends along the way, but I’ve made new ones. I found people that are willing to speak out for me and for the library on issues that are important. I’m in the coalition building business right now. I’m building personal learning networks and family networks and friend networks, coalitions of people from all walks of life. And so it has drawn people to me and I’ve made a lot of new friends that I’m very, very thankful for. I get a lot of messages of support and letters in the mail. There was a veteran named Bill who sent me a letter and Bill has served in the armed forces and he sent me a letter saying that there are going to be people that desert you when you fight for a cause, but to hold my head up high because there are more out there than I realize that are standing with me and that it’s important to stick up for what you believe in. And so I get letters like that from former students that keep me going.

Jay Ruderman:

Amanda, I want to talk about your memoir, That Librarian. Why did you write it and what did you hope to accomplish in writing it?

Amanda Jones:

Well, I didn’t set out to write a book just like I didn’t set out to become an activist. I was offered the book, I was emailed by a senior editor from Bloomsbury that heard me on the New York Times First-Person podcast and said, “Have you ever thought about writing a book?” And I, through my therapist, my therapist asked me to journal and write down my feelings, and I thought, “Well, that’s not much different than what I’m already doing.” And I had broached the topic. A friend had suggested it like, “You ought to write a book,” and I’m like, “Oh yeah, who are you kidding?” But I had notes on like, “If I did ever have a book, what would the chapter titles be?” But when you’re offered a book deal, you don’t pass that up. You’re offered a chance to tell your story.

Jay Ruderman:

And has the book achieved success? Are other librarians around the country reading it? Have they contacted you with any feedback on it?

Amanda Jones:

Yes, hundreds. Hundreds of librarians, not even just librarians, just fans of libraries and readers from all across the country have contacted me about it. I was just excited to have a book in print and it’s actually become a bestseller. It’s been on the Washington Post and the IndyNext and all the regional bestselling lists. So now it’s considered a Bestseller.

Jay Ruderman:

Wow. Congratulations.

Amanda Jones:

It sold a lot of copies so I’m really excited about that. It’s more than I had hoped for myself. I just wanted people to know my story.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, that’s awesome. So I would urge all of listeners to check out the book and consider buying it. Talk about what’s happening in the rest of the country. I mean, we’ve heard about the awful experience that you’ve had, but what other examples have you heard in different parts of the United States?

Amanda Jones:

So the things that are happening to me, villainizing school and public librarians are happening all across. We’re seeing mass challenges. People that don’t even have kids at a school will challenge three to 400 books. We’re seeing anti-library legislation. So we’re seeing states like Missouri passed a bill that can criminalize and imprison librarians for literature. But we’re also seeing the opposite of that because I know in Minnesota there was an anti-book banning law and there was Governor Tim Walz signed in a bill that librarians with their professional expertise should be trusted and that people should follow collection development policies. So we’re seeing that as well. All of the lawsuits that are happening, most of them are in Florida and Texas and the people that are challenging books are not winning.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. Well, that’s a good thing. I want to go a little bit deeper into why you think it’s important, and I just covered this issue in my last episode regarding film with Octavia Spencer, about the importance of authentic representation, the importance of seeing a book or film and seeing yourself in it, and why is that so important?

Amanda Jones:

It’s very important for authentic representation. I always use the quote by Dr. Rudy and Sims Bishop that, “Books should be windows mirrors and sliding glass doors.” And we should have books where we do see ourselves in them and we can learn and grow from people like us. But we also need to learn about people that are different from us, people of other races or religions or orientations or different people in different socioeconomic status than us. Because when you read about others, you learn empathy. And my child is a white child, I want her to learn about other races and I want her to learn about them from authentic voices. I want her to read books on Indian Americans or indigenous people or Black Americans from those authors themselves. So it’s very important to have representation, it matters. Because if they’re missing from the shelves, that sends the message that they need to be missing from the community as well.

Jay Ruderman:

So I always thought, I agree with you, I think that that’s something that I enjoy when I read or I’d want my kids to read about other people, to learn about their cultures, to learn about their stories. Why do people, do you think, see that as a threat?

Amanda Jones:

Well, the people that are seeing it as a threat, the majority of the people that are seeing it as a threat are white, straight males, if I’m being blunt. And those are the people that have historically been in a position of power in our country, and it’s a threat to them to see other people learn and grow that are not white straight males, or even I’ll say white, straight females too. It’s people that have been historically in positions of power are scared to lose that power. And so what you’re seeing is politicians helping stoke this flame of these falsehoods about libraries in order to pander for votes so they can swoop in for solutions to problems that don’t exist so that they can get elected to maintain their power and in turn, they file other legislation to maintain that power and it’s usually tied to money.

Jay Ruderman:

Is there a way, in your opinion, to keep politics out of our libraries?

Amanda Jones:

For this issue? No, because it’s… I would love it. To me, it should be a nonpartisan issue. The first amendment, we should all be for free speech. We should all be for equal rights. But if we’re being honest with ourselves and what’s happening, it is the far-right Republicans who are pushing book banning and censorship, and as a registered Republican, of which I am, I tired of people, extremists from within my party pushing these extremist views and ruining things for the rest of us. And I’ll say, they’ve about pushed me out of the party. I haven’t voted Republican in a few years because of these extremist views. But no, politics, we should all be for the same things. Freedom. This is America.

Jay Ruderman:

Exactly. So Amanda, I want to ask you about your interaction with other librarians because what you have experienced, other librarians have experienced in other parts of the country, but not everyone is as strong as you are or has the support network that you do have. You come across librarians who’ve just said, “That’s it. I can’t deal with this. I want to leave. I don’t want to do this anymore”?

Amanda Jones:

Yeah, they’re leaving in droves. We’re not going to have librarians or public educators for that matter left if our country doesn’t stop attacking them. I have a good friend of mine who is a leader in our field, who for a solid decade was the lead presenter at all the librarian conferences. She was at the forefront of everything. She blogged, she had a website, she spoke out. She was attacked so much, she’s disappeared. I mean, I still talk to her, but she’s disappeared from the public eye, doesn’t advocate for library. I mean, she can’t because she’s so attacked and it’s heartbreaking.

Jay Ruderman:

And what can you say to someone like that? You can’t force them to come back if it’s emotionally… If their mental health is not there.

Amanda Jones:

I say, you have to make the best decision you have for you and your family because I am in a position of privilege and I have a lot of my librarian friends who are single moms, they can’t afford to lose their job. They can’t afford to lose family support. Not everybody’s in that position and I understand completely. If they need to leave the field, that’s what they have to do. It’s just sad to me that they’ve been forced into no other choice but to do that because we love our jobs, librarians love our jobs. We go into our jobs not for the money, because that’s certainly not it, not for fame and fortune. We go in it to help our communities. And these librarians and educators are being driven out of the profession that are our calling because of mean, hateful extremists pushing these horrible lies and anti-library rhetoric.

Jay Ruderman:

That’s awful. Amanda, talk a little bit about the nonprofit that you helped start along with some fellow librarians, Librarians Building Libraries. What are the goals of this organization?

Amanda Jones:

Yes, we just launched that nonprofit and we have a website, buildinglibraries.org. And it was two friends of mine. We got together and we decided we wanted to help libraries. So it came out of an idea. A good friend of mine, Dr. Andrea Trudeau, spent a summer in Tanzania and she met Dr. Wasanga of the Jane and Demi School for Girls. And Dr. Wasanga said she really needed librarians help to help build her library at her school and help get it organized. It’s a self-sustaining school for girls, and she wanted someone to come in and teach the girls at the school, the older girls at the school, on how to set up a library, run it, and so that they could in turn teach the younger girls who would grow up and do the same thing and pay it forward. So that’s our first project, is we’re going to help organize and build a library at the Jane and Demi School for Girls in Kenya.

But we started a nonprofit because we didn’t want that to be our only project. So we hope to have a project every year. It just so happens this project is in Kenya. The next one, the next year might be in one of our own communities somewhere, it might be somewhere else in the United States, but it’s going to be helping people who need help build and grow their own libraries and information systems to empower, whether it’s students or members of their community, into growing their own self-sustaining library systems. Really proud of it.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, congratulations. And how would people get involved in this organization?

Amanda Jones:

We have a website, buildinglibraries.org. Right now it’s very new, very brand new website, so it will get better. But we are taking donations for our first project and once… We are going to be fundraising soon but once we get the details of our first major project, we’re going to set up outlines for how other people can replicate these projects in their own communities. And so whether they want to donate to help us or they want to look at our model of what we’re doing and do it within their own communities, they just need to follow our website and see what we’re doing.

Jay Ruderman:

Awesome. That’s great. So what advice would you give to fellow educators, librarians, even everyday citizens who don’t know where to begin to stand up in their own communities against book bans?

Amanda Jones:

To start, you have to pay attention. You need to, pretty much every library board of control, city governance, county governance, state governance, public library system, post agendas. It’s like in the bylaws, you have to post your agendas for open meetings, read those agendas, contact the people in power, whether it’s a school board member or a library board member or whomever, and watch those meetings. And maybe you’re scared at first to go to those meetings yourself, but usually they’re streamed online. So watch them online and learn and pay attention. But paying attention is the most important part. The next part would be speaking out once you understand what’s happening. You can email your legislators, you can join in. Pretty much every state at this point has a grassroots alliance that you can help and volunteer with. Louisiana has Louisiana Citizens Against Censorship. Texas would have the Texas Freedom to Read Foundation.

Florida has the Florida Freedom to Read. So they’re in all these states. Join and ask them what you can do. The power of the people in Louisiana, Louisiana Citizens Against Censorship, we built a coalition last year that sent 44,000 emails to the Louisiana legislature and we defeated seven anti-library bills, which was a huge success considering the extremist super majority in the Senate and the House and a dictator governor. So it’s the power of the people. You have to use your voice. Send those emails if you’re afraid, or you can attend meetings and you can fill out cards saying you’re in opposition of things that you don’t wish to speak, but show up and support.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. Well, that’s powerful advice, especially because a lot of us tend to look at federal elections and we don’t pay attention to local elections and local town meetings, and I think it’s important. That’s good advice to pay attention to what’s happening locally because sometimes that can have a great impact on your own community.

Amanda Jones:

And they’re counting on us not to pay attention. And that’s what’s happened, and that’s how this has all taken root. It’s all taken root in local communities across the state. It’s all local, and so your local elections really matter, so you got to get out there and vote.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, Amanda, it’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I’m very inspired by your activism, especially because you didn’t start out to become an activist. You became an activist and you’ve grabbed a hold and you’ve become a national leader. And I thank you for your strength and to stand up. I know it’s not easy, but I appreciate you and I really want to thank you for being my guest on All About Change.

Amanda Jones:

Thank you for having me. And I’ll say, I’m ready for this part of history to be over so I don’t have to continue to be an activist. I just want to go back to my normal, regular life. But until it does, until that happens, I will be speaking out. And I thank you for allowing me to share my story today. So thank you.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you so much. Today’s episode was produced by Yochai Maital and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or to learn more about the show, you can visit our website allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We’d really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation. That’s all for now. I’m Jay Ruderman, and we’ll see you next time on All About Change.